OpenStreetMap
Junction Nodes - When can they be used - 10 year ban if used incorrectly
Posted by slice0 on 4 July 2024 in English.I am reading through the comment log which resulted in a 10 year ban for using junction nodes incorrectly, when can they be used
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/149827539#map=12/-34.8875/138.5788
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/150094405#map=12/-34.8875/138.5788
these particular junction nodes are the only junction nodes ever to be deleted and removed, how are these any different to any other junction nodes on the map and why didnt the user who deleted these ones delete any other ones?
I am just seeking help with junction nodes, not sure how to use them correctly as the reason for their removal is not a direct quote from any part of the junction nodes wiki. hoping a discussion here would help shed some light on their removal.
Discussion
Comment from SomeoneElse on 4 July 2024 at 17:34
As I write this comment, what this diary entry currently says is a gross distortion of what actually happened.
Do you have anything positive to offer this community or merely just more trolling and untruths?
Comment from fortera_au on 5 July 2024 at 00:52
I deleted those ones and not others because I looked in the areas I map in.
And if you look at the page Tag:junction=yes you’ll see the following:
Comment from slice0 on 5 July 2024 at 01:52
here is my break down of that sentence and how it fits in with the rest of the wiki,
• junction=yes: This tag is used to identify a node as a junction in OSM.
• Do not use for junction nodes being shared by roads: If a node where roads intersect doesn’t have any special attributes other than being a common intersection, it should not be tagged with junction=yes.
• Without further properties: The node must have additional properties or context, such as being part of a named junction or having specific traffic flow controls, to warrant the use of junction=yes.
In essence, the junction=yes tag is reserved for more significant or complex junctions that have additional information or importance beyond just being a point where roads cross. For example, it could be used for named junctions or those with traffic signals, not just any point where two streets meet https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/18858/naming-junctions.
They are (were) placed at specific places where they warranted a actual function, which was to let people know of Y intersections. The very first line says “The tag junction=yes explicitly declares that an object is a road junction as such (crossroads, T intersection, Y intersection, any other type…).”
Comment from fortera_au on 5 July 2024 at 01:56
That’s not how I understood it, and there’s nothing that setting junction=yes gives any data consumer that anyone has seen. The reason why the tag exists is to explain what that node is when you add other tags to it, so that someone can see what a name tag is actually for, for example.
A Y intersection is still a common intersection too, there’s nothing special about it.
If you still disagree, there’s plenty of places to discuss it including the Wiki page’s talk page, the forums, and if the wording needs to be cleared up, then I’m sure those places will agree and help work on it.
Comment from slice0 on 5 July 2024 at 03:01
“A Y intersection is still a common intersection too, there’s nothing special about it.”
the intersections they were placed at were major intersections to make it easier to read the flow of traffic and exit roads along express highways. There is a good use for these nodes and I dont feel they were just placed randomly as they served a function. In your opinion when is it suitable to use these nodes?
Comment from slice0 on 5 July 2024 at 03:21
there are many many uses of these nodes in Oceania https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1NLd except south australia doesnt have any, the only nodes that were removed just happened to be place by me as well. Not sure how to understand this correctly.
Comment from fortera_au on 5 July 2024 at 04:00
They’re used when there’s extra information on a node to provide information about what the node actually is, similar to building=.
Like I said before, I removed the ones in the area I edit in, being SA. If they’re all added by you and nobody else has any issues, I’d suggest confirming if your understanding of them is correct.
Comment from slice0 on 5 July 2024 at 04:16
as you can see from the other Junction nodes in Australia they have been placed consistently in the same way the other nodes have been placed. Nobody has ever had issues with how they are used in Australia except once again you are saying that South Australia has a unique rule from the rest of the project.
You also have made many edits in the past which have been reverted because of a misunderstanding and also just happen to be my own edits, such as removing manoeuvre relations and deeming a turn illegal
https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/regarding-removeal-of-manoeuvre-relation/111947
https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/perfectly-fine-and-legal-turn-now-deemed-illegal/110311
These might just be a simple “human error” and thats ok it happens, at the very least if the DWG supports the removal in South Australia the wiki should be updated to reflect the unique policy for our state
Comment from fortera_au on 5 July 2024 at 04:24
If you have issues with edits, leave comments on those changesets, mistakes can happen and those changes were reverted following that realisation.
I’ve never said SA has a unique rule regarding this type of node, and nobody doing anything about those nodes means that nobody has an issue with them, it might just be that nobody’s seen them.
The DWG doesn’t set any kind of policy, the community does, so if you want to discuss this, the forums are open for polite discussions regarding these topics, where you can get feedback from the wider community and actions can be taken to ensure people don’t get confused in future if there is a misunderstanding.
Comment from slice0 on 5 July 2024 at 04:30
thanks for the discussion, the way this has gone is
or 2, you have made a honest error again and the nodes are with-in OSM policy and can be reverted
or 3, South Australia has a unique rule about junction nodes
the community needs to make a choice here
Comment from fortera_au on 5 July 2024 at 04:35
In which case, feel free to engage with the community through forums or mailing lists, as was suggested on the changeset originally. If I’m wrong in my understanding I’d happily revert my changes, as I’ve done previously when I’ve misunderstood or misread something.
Comment from Thiskal on 5 July 2024 at 07:41
From Wikipedia:
Comment from slice0 on 6 July 2024 at 03:53
@thiskal, who is your comment directed at?