OpenStreetMap

Some problems of Russian forum

Posted by calmness on 25 January 2018 in English (English)

An information about some problems of Russian forum was here. A letter to the Communication Working Group was written also. The Communication Working Group can solve all these problems. It is going to be good.

Thank you.

Comment from KonTur on 25 January 2018 at 05:22

Предлагаю назначить перевыборы модераторов на 18 марта!

Comment from Zverik on 25 January 2018 at 07:06

You can discuss Maps.Me, if you refrain from personal insults to developers, just like with any other project. 15 pages of discussions in the relevant topic show that.

The restriction for discussing moderation is common to any well-moderated forum. Otherwise we'd have to block much more people than we do now.

Comment from chnav on 25 January 2018 at 07:18

Users freeExec and siberiano and Zverik made huge contribution to OSM both in data and - especially - tools. They also made their best last year to clean the forum up of hateness and empty screamers, like author of above (8 changesets per 12 years).
Just leave us alone and give a break, we do mapping.

Comment from az09 on 25 January 2018 at 07:33

KonTur, никто не придет

Comment from Mixail on 25 January 2018 at 07:35

Despite Zverik's contribution in project, I agree that there is a conflict in interest in case of Maps.me. If there is conflict of interests in theme then you shouldn't perform any moderator activity in that topic.

Comment from chnav on 25 January 2018 at 08:01

Maps.me thread shall be closed at all, that's simple. If one want reach developers then shall use another media like mails or support pages or rating on Google Play.

If one have own fork of open-source Maps.Me and want discuss it then separate thread shall be opened.

Comment from literan on 25 January 2018 at 10:34

Не понимаю, зачем писать о русскоязычном форуме по-английски. Никаких существенных проблем с коммуникацией и модерацией на форуме не вижу. Никакой потребности в выборах/перевыборах не ощущаю. Возможно, проблема автора записи в дневнике - в том, что он лично вступил в конфликт (весьма мелкий) с одним из модераторов (ага, решение админа не понравилось, значит его сразу надо сменить).

Comment from LLlypuk82 on 25 January 2018 at 10:59

Из форума должно быть совершенно ясно, каким способом т. н. модераторы siberiano and Zverik были «избраны». Это было понятно ещё до т. н. выборов (как и то, что siberiano сольётся с форума на следующий день после «выборов»). Ещё до инициации «выборов» Zverik рвался в модераторы с одной целью — порулить в своих интересах и заткунть тех, кто ему не нравится. Делалось это под предлогом «наведения порядка» на форуме. Сразу после получения прав модератора лично Zverik сделал ряд ничем не обоснованных блокировок учатников, причём «задним числом», за нарушение правил, которые ещё не были придуманы и опубликованы (он это обещал заренее и даже прописал позже в т. н. «правилах», т. е. блокировать он может без объяснения причин). Некоторые участники ушли с форума, не желая унижаться.

Comment from literan on 25 January 2018 at 11:08

Значит, LLlypuk82 желает унижаться, потому и остался на форуме? Будем знать :-)))

Comment from LLlypuk82 on 25 January 2018 at 11:30

Это значит, что я не желаю, чтобы какое-то мешало мне обмениваться с людьми информацией там, где мне удобно, и указывало, что делать. И оно-таки не мешает. А холуйничать и подхолимничать — позорное занятие.

Comment from Zkir on 25 January 2018 at 12:34

I am just curious, can the moderators of those Russian forum ban each other? If so, can banned moderator still ban other users?

Comment from mavl on 25 January 2018 at 16:32

Hi all. I'm from Russia and I use forum. I never used Report button. So I know nothing about the reason number 3. But other reasons exists. These reasons are small, but the list is long. People write in russian forum about a conflict between calmness and Zverik, but I see a conflict between freeExec and Zverik. I guess freeExec and Zverik cannot work together in the same team. This reason number 11, maybe. Public quarrels of moderators harm to reputation of the project. 3 moderators could not resolve request (7 days). It is a problem.

Also people write to calmness in russian forum "You have 8 changesets only. Who are you at all?" It is not politely, but moderators do nothing. The OSM forum works for everyone. Forum is not an elite club.

+1 to new election to forum moderators.

Comment from mavl on 25 January 2018 at 16:34

KonTur, вы просто пошутили или вы поддерживаете перевыборы?

Comment from mavl on 25 January 2018 at 16:36

LLlypuk82, вы за перевыборы? Если не трудно, хотя бы напишите +1 или -1.

Comment from chnav on 25 January 2018 at 17:04

Тему перевыборов надо открывать на форуме, а не в статье-кляузе. Жаль что из-за всяких неадекватов приходится вообще об этом говорить.

Comment from vvoovv on 25 January 2018 at 18:51

Zkir, no, a moderator can't ban another moderator. Only forum admin can ban a forum moderator.

Comment from LLlypuk82 on 25 January 2018 at 18:55

@mavl +1

Comment from Dzertanoj on 25 January 2018 at 19:35

+1. - Conflict of interests exists regardless of anything else, especially - of a whistleblower's personality. - A conflict between moderators is unacceptable, especially in the passive-aggressive form. - Defunct "placeholder" moderator's position should be filled with a person who has time/will to fulfill his duty.

This topic should be discussed anywhere else but in Russian OSM forum since there, it is a clear violation of self-proclaimed rules.

Any arguments based an attempt to discredit a person using assumptions and non-related facts are irrelevant and only serve as an indirect proof that "Zverik's bandwagon" does actually exist.

Comment from Warin61 on 25 January 2018 at 21:26

Old soccer 'rule', "Play the ball, not the man."

For forum use and here .. it means comment on the object, not the person.

Someone broke that 'rule' by mentioning the developers rather than sticking to 'his' (his in an ownership sense rather than a personal sense) subject that maps.me did not render certain thing/s.. And it deteriorates from there ...

If you manage to keep persons out of the discussion then things will be a lot better. You can see how difficult it is by my use of "his" above .. I could replace it with 'the' and not get 'personal'! But for demonstration I have placed it there so you can see that the person is not relevant .. and can be left out entirely if 'you', the writer, are careful.

Note: Do what I say rather than what I do .. I too have fallen into the trap .. very easy to do! Just so easy to generate unintentional ill feeling.

Comment from Dzertanoj on 25 January 2018 at 22:21

Warin61, a conflict of interests is always a matter of personal features. So, pointing at the relevant ones based on repeating actions is totally valid. But this is just one part of a problem.

This rule has been broken by some of the current moderators in the first place - the part of their election "program" was to get rid of the certain people they don't like for personal reasons (mostly because their actions were openly criticized, sometimes - in a straightforward manner) while the rest of their programs was vague and unclear. It makes it look just like a personal vendetta, nothing more. Should people, who clearly declare their personal "targets" ever be in charge of keeping a civil discussion?

By the way, the whole situation with maps.me is well-known as a one-sided game, so it doesn't make any sense to demand using Google Play feedback, GitHub issue tracker or any other service as a "proper" channel of communication - developers just ignore these channels and that has been clearly declared. Therefore, OSM forum as a channel and Zverik as an active member of Maps.me team (exactly how he positioned himself in a community) inevitably became a channel and a target of all that reasonable frustration people started accumulating. So, even totally factual complaints, piling up in a huge heap with everything else, eventually started being disregarded and actively rejected. However, ignoring criticism is one thing, but pursuing a moderator's position to be able to sweep criticism under the carpet and to punish for the most prominent (not just rude, but detailed and/or pointing at long-lasting fundamental or especially harmful issues) acts of criticism is a totally different thing.

Comment from siberiano on 26 January 2018 at 12:47

Aggressive comments by Dzertanoj only show me that they fight for the right to criticise Maps.me and Ilya Zverev personally. I think there are plenty of channels to write complaints of MM functions, like MM support, feedback page, etc. If someone insists that MM is a bad editor in general, write to the OSM directors board, DWG or other places. Writing that on Russian forum is just an excercise in expressing your anger. Russian section is not for that. I think MM gets so much attention specifically because one of it's team is on the forum. I can't remember Russian users complaining of the evil iD developers or Potlatch, even though newbies do commit errors in them just as frequently.

So, the OP shows one example of a talk and extrapolates this to the entire state of the forum? I call this a false accusation.

0) Zverik has a conflict of interests, but maps.me is also more discussed than other editors, because there's him to blame. If you insist it damages the forum, please show more examples of moderatorship abuse.

The case you show:

1) freeExec wrote "developers didnt' read", but he lives in another city, and could not see them work, nor read their mind. This form of criticism was incorrect.

2) discussing moderatorship as you propose is a bad idea: the people who tend to have conflicts will come and accuse moderators upon any warning, and will come up with earlier discussions, and so on. There will be no end to this. Moderator in this situation has to both maintain work, respond to whatever claims, and try not to abuse their position. etc.

If moderators work poorly, then enough people should be displeased with the situation, so there would be no problem to initiate elections.

This was actually the case when we got elected. We all got tired of the forum full of trolling. And people did come and vote for us.

Comment from vvoovv on 26 January 2018 at 13:43

Не вижу необходимости проводить выборы модераторов.

Разногласия между модераторами - это очень хорошо. Это значит, что меньше вероятность сговора между модераторами.

Comment from Dzertanoj on 26 January 2018 at 19:16

Let me remind everybody who got distracted by the long discussion.

  • Conflict of interests exists by default when a person is in the positions where one of these might affect his judgment and actions in the other position. So, it is not even necessary to prove anything - this is a fact that everyone here is aware of. In the real world, this would be enough to even deny a candidate's application.

  • Another moderator is defunct completely (unless somebody starts talking about him), being a "placeholder" or an accomplice in a simple collusion.

These two reasons are quite significant, as well as their initial vendetta-style program. While the personal conflict mentioned above by calmness is just a particular resulting case that illustrates it.

Comment from Dzertanoj on 26 January 2018 at 22:41

And those who really like to point fingers at people's lack of merits (like, amount of edits), please, remember:

  • Aren't that you, who repeat the same words about "being kind to novices" all the time when it suits your point better?

  • Did you just forget that OSM is not a meritocracy, where someone's credibility, significance or even right to express a reasonable opinion depend directly on a size of genitalia (amount of edits or lines of OSM-related code, etc.)?

Just stop being so hypocrite and double-faced.

Comment from Dzertanoj on 26 January 2018 at 22:46

Oh, and speaking of collusion. Since Russian forum moderators are not obligated to have a consensus on every question or decision, it doesn't really matter if they all can or can not collude - one moderator will never cancel another moderator's ban or something. While Zverik's bandwagon still has the majority even if they would need that.

Comment from calmness on 27 January 2018 at 04:41

I understand that I am the enemy of community now. I understand the position of community: "We are good, we do the map. You are bad, you are empty screamer, you scold our moderators. Just leave us alone." I do not scold your moderators. I have written to them one idea: "Rules and politeness exist for everybody". I will leave you. No problems. I wrote a letter (my explanations) to Communication Working Group. Thank you for your comments.

Comment from LLlypuk82 on 27 January 2018 at 10:08

@calmness людей, которые поддерживают вашу точку зрения, гораздо больше, чем высказалось здесь.

Comment from siberiano on 27 January 2018 at 11:23

"Zveriks' bandwagon" - Бушман, похоже, мы тебя лишили единственного удовольствия - обсирать вновь пришедших на форум ОСМ. И Шурика тоже. Найдите себе уже получше занятие в жизни.

To anyone reading this from abroad. Dzertanoj seems to write in the style of BushmanK, has equal attitude towards Zverik and writes in details that such a newcomer would not be able to know.

He and LLIypuk82 were the two most prominent trolls before we got elected as moderators. They both eventually got 1-2 weeks of blocking, LLIypuk got blocked twice. Looks like it's now a matter of personal vengeance.

The arguments against Zverik, as you see, are entirely theoretical: "he can", "he may", "he has a conflict of interest", "bandwagon".

Comment from LLlypuk82 on 27 January 2018 at 11:36

"LLIypuk got blocked twice." It's lie. Welcome to liars club. And welcome to demagogues club. @siberiano you can't say anything on the merits (and anything with proof)

Comment from LLlypuk82 on 27 January 2018 at 12:02

To understand this situation we must find answers for only two questions:

1) When and according to what rules was made blocking? (of all contributors)

2) When these rules came into force?

Comment from KonTur on 29 January 2018 at 12:18

"mavl KonTur, вы просто пошутили или вы поддерживаете перевыборы?"

По большому счету - мне насрать. Я предпочитаю заниматься делом, чем словоблудить. Но Zverik как модератор мне не нравился никогда. Чисто по манере общения в сети. Поэтому я за снятие его с модераторов, т.е. за перевыборы, и за блокировку maps.me как источника кривых ПОИ в базе ОСМ.

+1

Comment from Alexander-II on 30 January 2018 at 23:13

Ну, понятно. iD, potlach (да и JOSM) почему бы не блокировать за вандализм и сломанные отношения? А streetcomplete за кривые региональные британские теги по всему миру.

Comment from RSergei on 10 February 2018 at 17:53

+1 за перевыборы. Список претензий к двум ныне действующим модераторам не изменился, а увеличился. Да, нельзя всем угодить. Но пока стало лишь частично лучше. Из новых вопросов: К siberiano: А Вы вообще сейчас что делаете в качестве модератора?... К Zverik'у: Почему Вы так остро реагируете на претензии к maps.me. Я понимаю необоснованные, но Вы блокируете все отступления от "линии партии". Даже когда люди предлагают сделать ещё лучше. Может Вам как выше сказали перестать тогда модерировать данный раздел?

Comment from Zverik on 10 February 2018 at 18:00

RSergei, вы когда в последний раз читали тему про maps.me на форуме? Я там никого не блокировал уже очень давно. Только, как описывает топикстартер, выдал предупреждение за обсуждение модерации. В теме про maps.me. Офтопик и очевидное нарушение правил, нет?

Comment from RSergei on 10 February 2018 at 18:12

Я и не написал только про блокирование, речь о Вашем отношении к людям в этой теме вообще. Складывается ощущение, что Вам неприятно слушать о недостатках программы вообще. Да, это Ваше детище, но и люди зачастую пишут не для злобы для. А благородства ради. Но у отношение одинаковое и к тем и к другим.

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