It Happened Again

Posted by Shernott on 21 July 2012 in English (English)

After last year's incident with Stéphane Brunner, he seems to be back to "correct" and "improve" my contributions: Changeset 12404180.

Well, last year I announced that I would withdraw entirely from mapping in the larger Lausanne area, but since I live there and a lot of mapping, that none else seems to be doing, remains to be done, I slowly started mapping again.

In the upper part of Epalinges were a lot of unnamed, misplaced, and also missing streets. Since the situation has remained unchanged for quite a while, I started to do something about that. In this area, the streets often don't form a simple meshed network, but more something like a tree, where it's sometimes hard to tell if a residential street has split in several branches or if it's just a collection of long driveways with lots of houses connected to each of them. I have chosen to tag what I could identify as the "main arteries" as residential streets, and the rest as driveways. Some of these driveways are rather long, and on a high zoom level (or a small GPS screen) it's possible that all you can see is the driveway. To complicate matters further, sometimes neighbouring houses are served by different driveways coming from different residential streets. Given that in the OSM Wiki the name tag is considered a useful combination for a service highway, I tagged those driveways with the corresponding street names, leaving the decision whether to render the name of the driveway or not to the rendering system.

... and along comes Mr. Brunner, who seemingly could live very well with all the unnamed, misplaced, and missing streets before, and decides without further question or discussion that my use of names on driveways is supposedly "abusive": Changeset 12404180

As I said earlier, apart from Stéphane Brunner I don't see a lot of mapping activity in the larger Lausanne area, and I'm seriously starting to wonder if that might have something to do with his behaviour.

Now I would like to revert Stéphane Brunner's change set and get my work back.

Any opinions?

Location: Ballègue, Epalinges, District de Lausanne, Vaud, 1055, Switzerland

Comment from Skippern on 21 July 2012 at 11:46

Try get in direct contact with this Brunner and talk to him regarding your contributions, and ask for his opinions and motives. He can be oblivious to your efforts thinking this is "his" map. With an unformal talk, maybe over a cup of coffee he might realise your efforts, and maybe the two of you (or more mappers) can agree on a concensus of how to tag some of the things he constantly changes

Comment from ca_hoot on 21 July 2012 at 12:15

This kind of thing seems to be increasingly common, mainly a small subset of mappers who are determined everything should be done by their (often made up) rules.

But it exposes a massive issue with OSM in general, in that there are not any easy to use, worthwhile conflict resolution tools. If you look at Wikipedia conflict resolution is central to the whole ethos of the site.

I can see this kind of thing becoming increasingly common as more people join up and it all degenerating into 'revert wars'.

Comment from Pink Duck on 21 July 2012 at 14:47

The OSM wiki does associate name with highway=service, but the discussion page hints at this being used only if the service road has been given an explicit name on the ground. For the majority of service lanes there is usually no name.

Comment from Shernott on 21 July 2012 at 15:26

@Pink Duck: To use a practical example, we're not talking about a driveway up to a single house, but about a situation like in the Chemin de Montéclard in Epalinges, where it's hard to tell where the street ends and the driveway begins. As you can see in my example, in Bing almost every single driveway has a name label, which is much more than I provided.

And of course you can discuss whether it is usual or necessary to give driveways a name, but I couldn't find an argument or reason why it would be wrong to provide this information, especially under the forementioned circumstances.

I consider Stéphane Brunner's behaviour as arrogant, rude and jerkish. He really seems to think that this is "his" map, and I doubt that he will change his behaviour without some feedback from the community.

Comment from Pink Duck on 21 July 2012 at 16:17

There are road sections like that in England, where the main road name is often used for the addresses of the buildings off the branches that are unsigned (or signed with house number ranges). For those I use highway=residential and use the same road name. It is ambiguous in the case you point out and it would have been better had he messaged you first to ask about the changes before reverting them. Has he seen this diary entry?

Comment from Shernott on 21 July 2012 at 16:39

@Pink Duck: I completely agree with you that the situation is ambiguous, and there is certainly more than one way to map it. But this is not my point.

Since I have started mapping in 2010, it happened again and again that Stéphane Brunner felt compelled to "correct" and "improve" information that I had just freshly put on the map, making sure to have everything "his way" and at best notifying my after the fact, not to seek an agreement, but to lecture me about "my error". That's what this is about. And yes, he is aware of it since I also brought it up on the Swiss mailing list.

Comment from malenki on 22 July 2012 at 04:18

As un-nice as the situation looks - you have not mentioned if you ever have contacted Brunner yourself.

Comment from Shernott on 22 July 2012 at 10:23

@Malenki: Until last year's case that went public, I tried to find agreements with Stéphane Brunner. But quite frankly, I'm a bit tired of watching him having his way with my contributions and having to plead and argue with him after he presented me with a fait accompli, only to have him to lecture me why he is right and I am wrong. In this case, he thinks he is right, because according to him, putting a name on a service highway constitutes "Tagging for the renderer". How do you argue that kind of "logic"?

Comment from Sanderd17 on 22 July 2012 at 12:56

Try to get the conceptual difference between a driveway and a residential highway.

In my opinion, a driveway is owned by private people (it's part of their ground), but a residential highway is owned by the state.

So in this case, I'd probably tag it as residential.

This is an example of how I do it, I think it's pretty comparable.

This is what works best In Belgium, I do not talk about other countries.

Even if a residential highway is a dead-end street and is only 2.5 m wide, I still tag it as residential (although I add the width tag for routing purposes).

And that issue with Stephane, you'll have to resolve that with him.

Comment from Shernott on 22 July 2012 at 14:05

@Sanderd17: Good for you! As I've alread said above: there is certainly more than one way to map it. But this was indeed about the issue of Stéphane Brunner imposing his point of view without consulting with anybody.

Comment from z-dude on 23 July 2012 at 03:44

If you know for a fact that those driveways are named the way you say that they are named, ie. from a site visit or from free data, then change the names back with a 'No, really, this is the name of the street'.

I think that a lot of edits on OSM are of the 'my import is higher resolution that the other guy's import' or 'my gps is better than your gps'

I think that OSM mapping is like driving a car.. 90% of the people think that they are doing it better than the average person.

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