OpenStreetMap

d1g has commented on the following diary entries

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Почему natural=heath - это не что угодно 7 days ago

Третье моё сообщение как раз не про landcover=*, это про любые геометрии с тегом викидаты или википедии т.к. Amazon rainforest единственный во всём мире. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q177567 а тегов для экосистем пока нет (или есть?)

Указание миллиона landcover=* прямо противоположено указанию одной (1!) экосистемы.

Отличия у "экосистем" и landcover=* есть (как и множество корреляций), поэтому я про landcover=* вообще не упомянул.

Почему natural=heath - это не что угодно 7 days ago

Лично мне до лампочки что в Амазонке "Влажные тропические леса". Я деревья и по Bing вижу, но рисовать не стану грубые контуры без осмотра местности.

Там деревья. natural=wood, а не natural=special_case_of_the_tropical_rainforest_only_seen_in_Amazonka

Ту же экосистему https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_rainforest

5,500,000 km2

Можно хоть тысячами километров обозначать, хоть самыми грубыми геометриями: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Amazon_rainforest.jpg

Каждый кусочек леса-то зачем заставлять всех обозначать и выучивать это в вики?

Почему natural=heath - это не что угодно 7 days ago

Грубо говоря начинаем с трех тегов tree_row, tree, wood, а уж потом переходим к обозначению "экосистем" лесов - уже отдельным тегом.

Здесь и отсеиваются тем кому абсолютно до лампочки экосистемы и те кто разбирается в кислотности болот и степей не должен каждую деталь объяснять.

grassland=* тег практически не используется (экосистемы), все пользователи отмечают траву natural=grassland

Травы не закончились, другие объекты не закончились, а экосистемы grassland=* не в приоритете обозначения.

Но, конечно, можно настаивать что natural=grassland - только "степи". Как-то так.

Почему natural=heath - это не что угодно 7 days ago

Даже если разбор BushmanK был без ошибок, у меня есть одно замечение которое нельзя игнорировать.

Экосистемы должны быть тегом отличным от natural=, полагаться на "экосистемы" в natural= - наивно

Это должен быть и natural=* тег и тег экосистемы.

В natural=* нужно оставлять простые и понятные объекты "воды", "деревья" и прочие. Вклинивать сюда (natural=*) экосистемы (которые требуют не нулевых знаний и подготовки) это как расставлять грабли всем пользователям которые хотят отмечать простые объекты вроде "лесов", "трав" и прочих.

Уважаемый BushmanK, я понимаю что старое значение natural=grassland было как бы "степь" (экосистема), но пользователям всё равно, они отмечают траву. Большие опусы на обсуждениях вики страниц здесь не помогут. Нужно дополнять действия пользователей и предлагать альтернативы.

И именно поэтому (из-за пользователей, а не самых точных определений) я наконец-то предложил обобщить natural=wood и natural=grassland до определений без намёка на "экосистемы" и без "дикие".

Osmlint to detect errors in OSM 5 months ago

Yes, thank you for examples in repo!

It is easier to learn new tools when you can compare apples from one tool to apples in other tool (and especially if it was done before).

Welcome to the new Missing Maps 6 months ago

A person that checks edits

AFAIK, HOT team have a person that checks how a task was performed with possibility to redo a task by other person.

I don't think we have a dedicated person in OSM that checks say Carnildo edits if they were valid or not and asks other person to implement same data.

At limited scale MM and HOT may perform well (something in data > nothing in data). But of course we don't want feed random data in OSM (but there nothing specific about Missing Maps).

Checker role shouldn't be permanent.

You could use statistics

Take 10 contributors, pay a banana per building. Tell them: you will get a reward ONLY if you draw a true building.

If one draws 10% less or more buildings than others in the group, he gets no reward.

IRL there would be "backroom deals" but with randomized nicknames and Internet you can get 10 persons that never knew each other.

This is exactly how captcha-driven data collection works.

Good thing about it is it scales even more with more contributors.

I never seen an implementation of this in OSM.

Osmlint to detect errors in OSM 6 months ago

Lovely dashboard! "Filter data" is a gem, but unexplained/no docs.

I would recommend to explain how to write and process amenity=cafe+name=Cafe Mirage -> amenity=cafe+Mirage using OSMLint - so users are not afraid of new interfaces and workflows (because common tasks are the same).

Could you please create sample code how to detect disconnected graphs (connected components with less 20 ways)? It is possible?

More platform independent code would be nice in examples (Java / Python)

Removed 6 months ago

Meersbrook, please explain concerns about your locality or what "common mistakes" you see. So if they are true, you simply can point to them next time somebody have to make hard decisions in unknown territory for them.

Examples:

  1. don't detail territory A because it was changed recently
  2. please help me with common highway graph mistakes
  3. there no road, bridge was broken 2 years ago
  4. please don't trace highways in territory B because ...

In the end, they are just editors of OSM, but with less knowledge of territory than you.

Use note=* tags in data, so nobody have to guess how poor or outdated imagery is. Use your native language if you feel slow in English.

Use more descriptive comments in changesets about important objects. Your commenting style "Features around (territory)" http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Meersbrook/history can be deduced from bbox of your changeset.

If a changeset should contain link to your guide, then post link in changeset comments!

Have fun!

Is there possibility to retag addr:housenumbers without european scheme? (updated) 6 months ago

DaCor, probably yes, but probably not :)

Like was above, there will be counter-examples in many countries (Portugal, France)

Зеленоград has no streets

One example would be Зеленоград

http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1988678#map=13/55.9792/37.1920

There no "streets" at all here, it uses "Korean" style (block-building addressing): http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/167350593/history

Is there possibility to retag addr:housenumbers without european scheme? (updated) 6 months ago

but they are so minimal that data users shouldn't treat them separately in most cases.

Again, it is up to data consumers: if they want more features, or if they want simple processing/speed.

addr:system tag

Based on what was said above, I think easiest solution would be in additional tag, not in re-tagging of NA addresses (it would be easy to convince people with statistical background, but almost impossible to explain this minimal difference in styles at OSM scale):

  • addr:system=european
  • addr:system=na
  • addr:system=korean

Yes this tag is absolutely optional, similar to how addr:postcode=* has no effect on most search results. If we see no use in postal codes, It doesn't mean that we should remove this information from database. Same about addr:system, it adds utility and possibilities for those who want them.

To me, OSM would win from clear distinction between european/na/other system.

addr:system=* can be applied to lowest admin_level=* boundaries (biggest suitable number) in hierarchy for simplicity.

Is there possibility to retag addr:housenumbers without european scheme? (updated) 6 months ago

As for European autocompletion, If I enter "123", then:

  • it makes sense to suggest: 121, 125
  • it makes sense to suggest: 123A, 123B, 123C
  • 122, 124 are completely meaningless or should be ranked after other variants (it is unlikely that I will make mistake in odd/even rule)

BUT!

To implement this is Portugal you have to check if you are not in one of the exceptional areas. In order to do this:

  • every single developer must maintain list: (address style - area)
  • explicit tag can provide a direct answer about what rule set to follow

Does it makes sense why European system is different from NA? They have different use cases (and some statistical properties):

  • NA tells you "X meters from start of the street"
  • European tells you "this building was planned as number X from the beginning of the street"
  • Korean(?) is about "first find this block, then find this building"
Is there possibility to retag addr:housenumbers without european scheme? (updated) 6 months ago

In general, a more clever auto-complete or an user interface:

  • In NA system it will display your GEO position in the road and spatially placed house-numbers (since its matters in NA version)
  • in European system house-numbers won't get you even an estimate of position (order over proximity)

I hope you would argue that region-based addressing (in Korea or in some cities) is completely different from NA and European style? Unfortunately, we don't have all details about this topic.

There should be hint for software "aha this house-number in Korean style". Right now, all developers can do is to re-study topic every time, or make a guess about rules in some territory.

This knowledge should be explicit in data, so it can be processes more robustly.

And yes, we don't have 5-digit numbers, but in what way would that make a difference for data users?

I don't have good ideas, but IN US you should have only numeric keyboard, while in EU you have to use other symbols more often.

We need stats: how often numbers used in NA addresses vs how often they used in European house-numbers.

If there no difference in every single territory, then I give up. Otherwise, it may speed up input of house numbers.

http://osm.org/way/311932649

But I was able to hack Nominatim (a second link in the results) :)

Or I don't understand what exactly wrong with this example.

Is there possibility to retag addr:housenumbers without european scheme? (updated) 6 months ago

Europe also has some distance based numbers. You mention Portugal, but I know several villages in France that also use that schema.

Keyword here is "some" villages and "several" villages. I never denied this NA-style is present in Europe, but we should tag it better.

Then there are also streets where numbers take "jumps" on crossings. Not often by 100, but rounding up to the nearest multiple of 10 happens sometimes (note that in taginfo, the numbers 10, 20, 30 are also everytime more popular than 9, 19, 29, which shows my point).

  • Europe RARELY uses Multiples of 10 or skips tens of numbers but
  • NA approach OFTEN uses multiples of 100 or even 1000.

Then we also have things like bis-numbers. Where houses are build between adjecent numbers (f.e. new houses between 29 and 31), and the number gets an extra letter (29A, 29B, 29C, ...).

Additional symbols are typical to both schemes (NA sometimes uses numbers instead of letters)

housenumbers in Europe are far from uniform

In terms of spatial proximity between consequent house numbers? I think they are more uniform, but of course I had no time to observe each of 60M cases.

Other problems is that improperly tagged objects screw statistic and you have no real understanding why or where bases on planet-wide stats

But I doubt it's different enough to need a new schema.

Well maybe not a completely new schema but some tag to split odd/even numbering from proximity-based and grid-based?

Mostly/only in NA you will see 12345 housenumbers

More examples why Europe is so different:

Воздухоплаватели дают "добро" 6 months ago

Gre-kow, молоток!

Вадимом Радченко большое спасибо! Свежие снимки всегда пригодятся для целей OSM!

"Легитимизация" невнятных тегов: как это делается, как её обнаружить 6 months ago

По последнему абзацу. Шутка в том, что шаблоны эти нафиг не нужны. Не было бы одарённых админов в лице Harry Wood, глядишь и попробовали бы расширение установить:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Semantic_Forms https://habrahabr.ru/post/181474/

Ничего неподъёмного там нет, наоборот всё упрощается для пользователей.

My christmas gift for the OSM Community - JOSM Keyboard Shortcuts Cheat Sheet 300 DPI 8 months ago

Nice to see my edits in more visual way! :) There many more default shortcuts uncovered by this image.

Anyone can join editing this (still incomplete) page: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Shortcuts!

Пешеходный роутинг: чатик посовещался и решил 11 months ago

а эти самые переходные дорожки отмечаем, что они являются боковыми для проезжей части footway=sidewalk

Не совсем точно, а может быть и вредно.

highway=footway + footway=sidewalk некоторыми в России обозначался для тротуаров "встык" к проезжей части. Это более точное определение.

Зачем нужно "встык" и "по другому"? - потому что в ПДД есть термин "обочина" - потому что по "обочинам" часто ходить опаснее чем по обычным highway=footway (маршрут можно не прокладывать по footway=sidewalk)

С подходом footway=sidewalk на "любом отмеченном тротуаре отдельной линией" эти преимущества теряются. Поэтому указывайте хотя-бы в description "встык к ПЧ" либо тег придумайте если видите этот подход.

Ещё раз, классифицировали на: 1. highway=footway - любые тротуары 2. highway=footway + footway=sidewalk - тротуары "встык" к ПЧ

Сбор и внесение информации о подъездах в домах. 11 months ago

Колоссальное повышение эффективности. Я сам давно Vespucci не пробовал, но моему опыту разница будет не более чем в два раза по врмени-действиям:

Метод LLlypuk82 имеет недостаток с заметками: это потеря по времени на ввод промежуточной информации. Я фотки/видео в JOSM правлю, без notes-заметок.

  • тут неудобный тачскрин (телефон)
  • там нужно повторно смотреть картинки (теряется время, но чуть-чуть) зато печатать удобнее (выигрыш по времени)

Особенно когда JOSM подстказывает предыдущие теги типовых подъездов в Vespucci есть такое сейчас?

Lets tone down mutually offensive and insulting statements with Harry Wood 11 months ago

@woodpeck, I consider your statements as offensive and unproductive:

  • you are not discussing topic (how to improve wiki; concrete edits) but constantly attack my person / my social status / popularity of some views
  • you are not assuming good faith in my edits "but it is obvious that if you are allowed to edit the Wiki, trouble ensues"

Read https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Etiquette again please.

Unlike you, other people find my edits actually useful: "Your edits were indeed useful and welcome (for the most part)" (yes there things we could improve on; both in content and our interaction: namely nobody publicly said "thank you" for my edits)

But I more humble about it and not complain about it at every step for some reason. Maybe some people are not able to comment my user page; maybe some people not aware about good manners; maybe some people don't have time for this.

Lets tone down mutually offensive and insulting statements with Harry Wood 11 months ago

@woodpeck, my respond will look as personal attack. But please, in the end it is always one person responsible to something. I cannot point to actions without pointing to concrete people/statements/quotes.

Problem with Harry is that HE was perfectly capable to mitigate ANY of questionable edits/misunderstandings but decided to bermaban me despite all of my efforts to remind of MANY ALTERNATIVES.

Unfortunately Harry was repeatedly suppressing any of alternative given to him as admin, repeatedly: "preventing any change to wiki" "Maybe the admins can consider your technical suggestions if you leave them time. I am neither admin and as a programmer neither php nor mediawiki fan and can not help there."

Is this what dedicated/capable admin would do?

I think you should simply do something else

You fail to realize that I won't.

If it is not your priority to teach people their tools, that's not my fault.

It is not my fault you are not able to teach them efficiently instead of creating FAQ pages.

I'm fine with your attitude "that I fully support keeping you off the Wiki for eternity", there many people like you who do nothing to improve situation but endlessly rant about temporal inconvinience and without discussing real alternatives.

My permaban at wiki.openstreetmap.org means that there SOME incompetent admins who decided to ban me, nothing else.

What I'm doing right now

Right now I'm slowly updating JOSM wiki (josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki) with beginner materials.

I don't care how many people my edits will "offend" again. How adding/restructuring wiki can offend anyone??? If some content was requested for years, someone have to resolve it.

if Harry fails to respond to admin requests/fill-full 2-year old requests from the community that's not my fault. It doesn't matter if it was intentional or not.

More personal responds/more context here: 1 2