OpenStreetMap
Sharing our experiences can help us shape where we want to go. Over the past months, I have been approached by many people wanting to talk about the ‘community gaps’ or the ‘diversity’ issues in OSM. On the Diversity-talk mailing list, we’ve touched on the topics and aim to support each other. How can we become more welcoming in OSM? What are the steps we can take to be more ‘open’ with each other, and to new people?
Experiences in OSM
Open Gender Monologues is a way to share our collective stories. We want to raise awareness on gender issues in OSM. We’d love to hear your story, your experiences. You can share anonymously or with your name. We also welcome anyone who would like to share in person at the SOTM Open Gender Monologues session. And, if you want to have your story read, we can help. Here is a 3 minute survey to contribute and details on the session:
There are amazing, generous people doing fantastic things in OSM. This is what I would love to hear people consistently say about OSM. And, often, they do. But, the other side of the feedback/experience, is sometimes less helpful for OSM’s mission. There are issues with how OSM collectively manages diversity, inclusion, and community engagement. To what extent are we “open”? It is not simply about the license, the open data, or FOSS. It is a mentality and a culture of “openness”. Only by fully understanding and talking about the problems, can we productively move beyond it.
It might seem that there is just one or two stories. That has not been my understanding. The under current statements follow a pattern: “oh, ignore the tone on OSM mailing lists”, “it is not you, this is how the community has always talked with each other”, “cold response”, or “mailing lists are sometimes hard” or “it is just one or two people. Ignore them.” Honestly, if people’s experiences in OSM less than kind and welcoming, then we are not doing as well as we could.
Be an ally
Can you share the survey across the OSM community? It would be helpful for supporters and allies of OSM to also share their experiences with OSM.
OSM in the Open
What are the experiences in the wider ‘open communities’ around OSM? Last week I read this article OSM should be the priority of the open source community. Yes, and, on the flip side how can OSM learn from those communities?
About Open Gender Monologues @ SOTM
We’ll host a session at the State of Map - Milan (July 28 - 30, 2018) This session will not be like any usual panel. We want to raise awareness of the struggles and successes of women and LGBTQ in the OpenStreetMap community - using their own words and experiences. Open Heroines is a global community supporting diversity in open communities. We share voices of women in open government, open data and civic tech.
The session is being co-hosted by Kate Chapman and Heather Leson.
Discussion
Comment from Anas Almzoghy on 19 June 2018 at 06:13
Hi,
I really appreciate your efforts and what you’re doing for the LGBTQ community in OSM. But to be honest, I don’t really understand what does sexual orientation or gender has to do with ?OpenStreetMap in specific and mapping in general? Here we share our enthusiasm for mapping and helping the other (HOTOSM), and I can’t really get what you’re saying? were there any attacks against LGBTQ people in the OSM community recently or something?
Again, thanks for your efforts!
Comment from Heather Leson on 19 June 2018 at 07:16
Hi Anas, thanks for your note. The focus is a culture of inclusion and ‘openness’. It would be fantastic to say that no one has had experiences in OSM that made them feel gender and non-binary gender excluded. The purpose of OSM, the spirit of community and the quality of data could be improved if there was an outright expectation that we can and should be more warm and inclusive.
When it comes to LGBTQ community experiences, I will ask those folks to share. Women in this community have expressed concerns, examples, and subtle exclusion. Again, this is not ‘always’ the case, but it is enough for people to walk away from the community and/or not be more engaged. I say this because people are approaching me and sharing.
The Open Gender Monologues is a way to bring the conversations to the open and then work together on how we might grow and shift.
Thanks again for your kind words,
Heather
Comment from ndrw6 on 19 June 2018 at 23:57
OSM, as an organization, is already open and doesn’t discriminate anyone. It does so in the best possible way - by not caring who the contributors are. Here less is more.
OSM is a mapping project, that is what interests and unites us. There are many other worthwhile things to do in life but in here they are all nothing more but distractions from mapping.
OSM is a global project. Many contributors come from places with different social, moral or indeed legal rules from ours. Some would vigorously oppose our moral standards and there is nothing wrong with that in the world they live. Do go ahead and change them, just be prepared for a lot of work and time and don’t drag the rest of us into it.
Our views evolve too. What is desirable today may be incriminating in a non-obvious way 30 years later.
In view of that it is better for us to focus on mapping and, as much as possible, stay away from politics. At best politics divides us, at worst it can get some contributors or the project itself in trouble.
Happy mapping.
Comment from Omnific on 20 June 2018 at 01:26
Hi Heather, I’m quite socially liberal, but like the other commentors haven’t seen any examples of discrimination against the LGBT community or women in OSM. I think without some concrete examples, claiming discrimination does more to harm the cause because it trivializes real, active discrimination against the LGBT community and women in other arenas.
I look forward to seeing some real experiences from women and LGBT community members as a result of this effort, since it will be good to have real examples to point to where they exist in OSM.
Comment from alexkemp on 21 June 2018 at 10:24
I’m happy to learn that you are such an open & welcoming person that “people are approaching me and sharing”, but the absence from all your statements of even one piece of concrete evidence undermines what you say. Here is something that may help…
I see that Diversity talk is now in it’s 6th year, having been created on June 11, 2013. It seems to get less posts each month than the number of letters in ‘LGBTQ’, and most certainly less than the current number of acceptable gender pronouns. Nevertheless…
So, after 5 years of posts, help us out:– how many of those posts are reports of problems experienced in OSM re: diversity? If the answer is zero, will you then agree that this is a non-issue?
Comment from wonderchook on 21 June 2018 at 11:15
For those that doubt that there are issues with gender diversity in OSM and claim they haven’t heard anyone say it is a problem. Heather and I are BOTH women in OSM and are saying it is an issue. We have both experienced issues. This doesn’t mean all women experience issues, but WE are saying we have. Other women have approached me in the past citing issues, hence one of the reasons for hosting this workshop.
For some of you, I suspect no amount of proof is ever going to be enough. Fine, you can go and map. You don’t need to argue with us about our own initiative though, you probably aren’t the audience for it anyway.
Comment from mikelmaron on 21 June 2018 at 14:49
Hey men of OpenStreetMap. I also have heard specifically from women and gender minorities in OSM that they have experienced problems. If you’re hearing that gender is an issue for participation in OSM and haven’t directly heard concrete details yourself, don’t cast doubt or trivialize. It’s our duty to be patient and listen, not demand proof before anyone has had a chance to even share their experiences. As @wonderchook said, if that’s your approach, this topic may not be for you. I for one very much look forward to and welcome anyone who’s ready to come forward and talk about what they’ve experienced. My hope is that can be a step to an even more welcoming community.
Comment from mvexel on 21 June 2018 at 15:47
If we keep saying there isn’t an issue, we keep making it harder for people who experience harassment / discrimination to speak up. Just look at how long it took for workplace harassment to be taken seriously. And there’s probably still people out there who deny that this is a problem as well. Like Mikel says - the least we can do is listen.
Comment from alexkemp on 21 June 2018 at 16:03
Ah, OK. I had not realised before this statement that “gender diversity” actually translates in practice into “not a heterosexual male”. My mistake. How silly of me. Thinking that words mean what the dictionary declares them to be.
gender: (Merriam-Webster): > 1. a subclass within a grammatical class of a language 2. sex
diversity: (Merriam-Webster): > 1. the condition of having or being composed of differing elements
Now call me strange, but I simply cannot translate the above two definitions in combination as “not a man”. It does just not compute.
And once again, still no concrete examples, just hand-waving “ooh, I/we/they have been discriminated against”. Who? What? Where? When? How? (plus a guess at) Why? How come you are all unable to understand a call from multiple people for “concrete evidence” is a call for “substantia”, rather than just more hand-waving.
Well, I now understand that it is not a topic for heterosexual men. Yes, I’ve now got that point (sigh).
Who isn’t listening? We are listening very carefully and saying “please give us examples of the problem so that we can get a grip on where & what it is”.
Once again, there are 5 years worth of Diversity talk. I’ve had a quick look through but can only see posts from Heather asking for non-heterosexual men to post examples of their problems. I’ve therefore asked for urls linking to some replies which example the problem that Heather states bedevils OSM. If the problems are as extensive & problematic as Heather states they are it will be a matter of moments for her or others to dig them out from their archives & post them here. Then, no-one will be able to gainsay what she is saying.
Comment from mikelmaron on 21 June 2018 at 16:07
I’m a heterosexual man, and I’m ready to listen. You individually are free to not participate @alexkemp
Comment from alexkemp on 21 June 2018 at 16:14
Please note the difference between “hearing” & “listening”. The first is a function of biology, but the second requires also integration of brain & body. In other words, everybody hears, but only a few actually listen.
Comment from mvexel on 21 June 2018 at 17:17
If we get into definitions. I can play that game too. Listening you can do passively (which is where we are at in OSM, at best) and actively. Actively listening would include, among other things, giving people a place where they can talk about difficult topics privately and confidentially. This, and having an anti-harassment policy are common (and in some jurisdictions required) in larger organizations.
Comment from Omnific on 21 June 2018 at 17:44
I think everyone can agree that if there are issues with discrimination in the community, we need to get them out in the open and address them to find solutions.
The biggest possible issue I see has less to do with explicit discrimination and more to do with the small number of female mappers. This leads to a fundamental question of the cause of this (which is also a significant issue in the tech/engineering fields): is it because of a community that does not welcome women or does it have to do with gender preferences regarding specific types of tasks at an aggregate level? Since I don’t think that has been answered fully, I would encourage engagement on the topic.
Certainly, there have been studies that indicate that at a young age (grade school), girls feel a lack of confidence in their abilities in math/science, regardless of the fact that their actual performance in on par or better than significantly more confident male students. I suspect those beliefs, learned early in life, are a big factor in the lack of female engagement in the OSM community, given the generally technical nature of the work.
Comment from amapanda ᚛ᚐᚋᚐᚅᚇᚐ᚜ 🏳️🌈 on 21 June 2018 at 21:20
I will write a proper post but: the global HOT Summit is happening in a place where it’s illegal to be out + LGBTQ; 4 of the 5 applications for the 2019 global SotM conference bans out LGBTQ people, and that doesn’t seem to be a deal breaker; SotM Africa 2017 & SotM Asia 2018 had/have similar issues. LGBTQ safe spaces don’t seem to be required. You shouldn’t criticise tactics against oppression if you don’t have a track record of criticising the oppression.
Comment from mapeadora on 21 June 2018 at 23:40
Hi everybody,
To participate here with not only “hearing” & “listening” contributions, but with data from experience, I share the preliminary results of the survey that Geochicas has developped last year and that will be presented in SOTM Milan, where OSM contributors clearly express discrimination (with no details in this first analysis, I’m sorry) and distortion between male/female’s perception of the inequalities, hostilities, and discrimination.
It’s not my individual voice (this one can be seen as well but some of you downplay individual testimonies, and that’s preoccupying) but the expression of a large community, and we will incorporate a larger one in the next summary of the results.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mapeadora/diary/44218
Comment from BFriedly on 21 June 2018 at 23:58
I think Alyssa Wright in her 2013 SOTMUS talk did an excellent job at showing the depth of the problem of gender exclusion in the OSM community - The Threads of OSM Discussions: Are the Doors Really Open?. Because OSM is a product that is created by a community, and requires a broad and engaged community for it’s sucess, it’s worth watching for anyone who cares about OSM.
To summarize a few key points from the talk:
Women’s Participation in Open Source (including OSM) is far lower (3% of contributors to OSM, 1% of participants in Open Source). This is in 2013. I don’t have updated statistics on this, but I think at this point the burden of proof should be on those claiming it has been fixed.
One of the proposed reasons she found for this was that “maybe there is active hostility toward women.”
This is a major problem because “maps are biased by the norms, traditions, assumptions, and political biases of the map maker,” and exclusion reduces the “collective intelligence of diversity” of OSM.
An analysis of participation in OSM Dev and OSM Talk mailing threads showed the lack of gender diversity in who is participating in OSM conversations.
Both open hostility and microaggressions push women out of conversations and as a consequence, the community.
Here are a few concrete examples:
Sarcastically referencing acceptable gender pronouns »> It seems to get less posts each month than the number of letters in ‘LGBTQ’, and most certainly less than the current number of acceptable gender pronouns. @alexkemp
Belittling someone’s lived experience while questioning ability to comprehend
»>just hand-waving “ooh, I/we/they have been discriminated against”. Who? What? Where? When? How? (plus a guess at) Why? How come you are all unable to understand a call from multiple people for “concrete evidence” is a call for “substantia”, rather than just more hand-waving. @alexkemp
Heather, thank you for your continued efforts to make OSM a better community. A broader, more diverse community leads to a better map and better technology. Looking forward to learning from the Open Gender Monologues you and Kate will be leading this summer!
Comment from alexkemp on 22 June 2018 at 01:34
STEM == “Science, Technology, Engineering and Maths”
(OSM is a classic STEM activity)
I took a STEM degree course in 1968 and, having had a secondary education in an all-boys Grammar School, was looking forward to being able to meet girls at University. I was then profoundly depressed to discover that my course was 99.9% boys. In 1998 I provided technical support for an Internet Service Provider, and in 2003 Network support for the NHS; my fellow workers were 99% male in both cases.
It is normal to find a preponderance of men in STEM activities. The reason this UK STEM page is chock-a-block with pictures of girls is because the UK government is desperate to get more girls into STEM as to help fix the UK STEM skills shortage. Unfortunately for the UK, the evidence is that as a country’s sex-equality becomes more balanced even fewer of their women enter STEM activities/education.
British Psychological Society: Research Digest: > March 14, 2018
> Investigating the “STEM gender-equality paradox” – in fairer societies, fewer women enter science
PLOS ONE:
> April 21, 2016
> Countries with Higher Levels of Gender Equality Show Larger National Sex Differences in Mathematics Anxiety and Relatively Lower Parental Mathematics Valuation for Girls
The above suggests that, if you want more women to get involved in OSM, then the best way to achieve that will be to reduce the levels of sex-equality in your country. I can understand that that may not be acceptable to most folks reading this! (including me) but perhaps you get the point.
Now a note on research bias (2nd link):
If you set out to research ‘xyz’ with a pre-disposition that it is (to be simplistic) either good (or bad) then guess what? You will more than likely discover that it is indeed good (or bad, or however you were predisposed to find it to be). This kind of perversion of truth has been well known for centuries, and yet people continue to fall into those kind of errors even to this day.
As the old Irish tale goes, “If you want to get to there, I wouldn’t start from here”.
Comment from amapanda ᚛ᚐᚋᚐᚅᚇᚐ᚜ 🏳️🌈 on 22 June 2018 at 14:20
@alexkemp: Your examples of “natural” & fair selection criteria is… grammar schools and UK universities in the 1960s?! 🤣🤣
Comment from Zverik on 22 June 2018 at 14:39
I’ve read an article in Quillette recently on the topic. It cites a review of the first paper above by OIga Khazan, which ends with:
And the key point in that article is,
But that estimate is for countries with excellent gender equality. Which are very few. We can do better.
Comment from danbjoseph on 22 June 2018 at 14:39
Thank you Kate Chapman, Heather Leson, Alyssa Wright, Geochicas, and the others working for positive change on this.
Comment from alexkemp on 22 June 2018 at 14:45
@rorym 🏳️🌈: I assume that you are making a joke there, Rory, in the same way that the tale of my discovery of the overwhelming preponderance of men within STEM subjects & activities attempts to be lighthearted. However, many that will read these comments have a sense of humour deficit. Something for both of us to remember in the future, perhaps.
PS
Is that an Irish flag in your name? FireFox & Thunderbird have glyphs for it, but Chrome (and Unicode, as best I can tell) do not.
Comment from danbjoseph on 22 June 2018 at 15:04
up to date Chrome:
in the email notification:
Comment from alexkemp on 22 June 2018 at 15:04
@rorym 🏳️🌈:
> Is that an Irish flag in your name? FireFox & Thunderbird have glyphs for it, but Chrome (and Unicode, as best I can tell) do not.
My apologies; your flag is indeed bog-standard utf8. It is simply that Chrome cannot glyph it:–
(from the mail source):
Comment from alexkemp on 22 June 2018 at 15:08
Hmm. Mine is up-to-date Chromium (“Version 66.0.3359.117 (Developer Build) built on Debian 9.4, running on Debian 9 (64-bit)”). It just shows 2 x “glyph is missing” glyphs. Ah well.
Comment from wonderchook on 23 June 2018 at 00:45
@Zverik there are many other studies showing that it isn’t that women don’t want to code, it is that they feel pushed out or don’t think it is for them in the first place. Harvey Mudd College now has more women than men graduating in computer science by changing how it was taught.
Just by using different language you can attract women to apply to jobs they might not have before.
Anecdotally I know many women who have felt pushed out of OSM. If we really want as detailed a map as possible we should figure out how to stop doing that.
Comment from pigsonthewing on 24 June 2018 at 17:44
“OSM, as an organization, is already open and doesn’t discriminate anyone.”
Really? You think having meetups in pubs [disclosure: I sometimes attend such meetups] does not discriminate against Muslims, or alcoholics, or recent parents, or others who find pubs a non-friendly environment? And that is just a small, trivial example.
Because you, or any individual, has not experienced nor witnessed discrimination does not mean it does not happen. If you enjoy that privilege - for privilege is what it is - shut up, and learn from those who do not.
Comment from ndrw6 on 24 June 2018 at 22:13
Yes, I think having meetups in pubs, which these days are as accommodating to everyone as restaurants, is pretty much irrelevant as far as discrimination goes. It does not prevent anyone from contributing to OSM or indeed attending the meetup - drinking alcohol or eating meat is entirely optional.
I found the latter part of your comment rude. I could have said you are discriminating against my ethnic origins but we all know you are in fact a bit of a pig on the wing.
Comment from Heather Leson on 25 June 2018 at 07:24
Dear colleagues, I appreciate an open space for conversation, but ask for peace in tone and approach. We are all passionate about OSM. To be honest, some of the notes are exactly why we need to talk about how we are and how we collaborate.
Thank you,
Heather
Comment from ndrw6 on 26 June 2018 at 07:35
Dear Heather,
Sorry for my silly response, it was a poor attempt at a joke. In case you wondered, no, I wasn’t at all offended myself. I just wanted to point out a mismatch between the message and the tone.
I disagree with your advice to moderate discussions. OSM is a collaborative project. We rely on open communitation and occasionally have to express criticism in changeset comments or discussions, correct or revert someone’s work. All that can be upsetting but is necessary for a project like this to function. The alternative is no communication or closed communication.
The question is, where do we draw a line between exchanging opinions and harming people. Myself, I would stick to the laws of the country involved, or if in case of multiple jurisdictions, a set of laws that is common to them all. That’s the best approximate of public consensus we have.
Comment from jenjereren on 30 June 2018 at 12:10
Hi Heather,
I am an active member of the mapping community in the Philippines. Last March, in celebration of Women’s Month, I was asked to talk about my experiences as a woman mapper in a conference-workshop. I hesitated for a while because I thought I didn’t have any personal experiences, so I did some reading and came across articles and stories talking about how lopsided the numbers were. All sources basically told the same story – that there were too many men and too few women in mapping. Upon seeing this, I had to take a good hard look at how I mapped in the past. I mapped following instructions made by men. Men mentored me, so when it was time for me to do some mentoring, I was still boxed by how they arranged their thoughts, how they mapped, and ultimately, how they saw the world.
After my talk, we had an open forum. It was then that I realized that I should be more conscious of who I am when I map. I started out mapping health centers I have been to (I’m a mom). All of those centers weren’t mapped. Lately, I also started adding breastfeeding stations to OpenStreetMap. In the PH, a lot of breastfeeding mothers are still shamed for feeding in public.
This is my experience in OSM. I wasn’t discriminated, attacked, or belittled. It just took a long time for me to finally map with the gender lens on.
Comment from Heather Leson on 1 July 2018 at 16:30
Thanks again for this conversation. Jenjereren, thanks for this reflection. It is exactly why we need to learn from each other. How might we be a more inclusive map? How might we reflect all our lives in what we map?
Thanks for this leadership in sharing.
Heather
Comment from b-jazz on 5 July 2018 at 18:48
I brought the following video to the attention of the SotM-US organizers:
https://youtu.be/p1-EnjK14w8?t=3m3s
They couldn’t have cared less about it and made it clear that they were biased towards sexism against men being acceptable.
It was at that point that I stopped caring about diversity in OSM. You lost an ally in me.
Comment from Zverik on 5 July 2018 at 19:35
You lost everybody here on “sexism against men”.
Comment from b-jazz on 5 July 2018 at 19:52
@Zverik is delusional if he thinks he speaks for “everybody here”. You lose a portion of the population when you advocate for unequal treatment and exclusion. Why not strive for truly level playing field and not alienating people. Do you think you’ll actually attract more people to your cause with statements like that?
Comment from SomeoneElse on 6 July 2018 at 08:05
@b-jazz That comment in that SOTM-US video is clearly meant as and taken as a joke (clue: the audience laughs). I’ve no idea what you said to the SotM-US organisers or what they said to you, but perhaps you need to be a little more open to what other people think - sometimes things are a little more complicated than you might at first think.
Comment from b-jazz on 6 July 2018 at 16:49
In this day and age, you can no longer make jokes like this. If SomeoneElse hasn’t figured that out yet, they will be in for a big surprise when they get caught on video making a microaggression and lose their job over it. SomeoneElse should be open to the fact that the man in the photo might have been seriously offended at the presenter making a joke about him when he (possibly) wasn’t doing anything wrong. Look at it from his perspective.
Comment from Geonick on 8 July 2018 at 14:23
@wonderchook wrote “… many other studies showing that it isn’t that women don’t want to code, it is that they feel pushed out or don’t think it is for them in the first place.”
I partially agree with the second part of the statement, that women “don’t think it is for them”. And I completely agree with saying that “Just by using different language you can attract women to apply to jobs they might not have before.”
Here are specific recommended actions and a checklist for organisations about “Attractivity of ICT jobs”: https://www.fhnw.ch/de/die-fhnw/hochschulen/hsw/pmo/forschung-und-dienstleistung/attraktivitaet-von-ict-berufen (sorry Geman again, but Deepl.com will help you). Though this applies mainly to general communication and of course not for technical discussions, like e.g. on tagging, OSM software or coding.
On the other hand, I can’t confirm the claim and repeated hypothesis that women supposedly are being pushed out more than in any other STEM related activity. I’d like you really read up to what @alexkemp said above about STEM.
Pls. look also closely at this “Empirical investigation of the motivation of participants in the voluntary collection of geodata” which specically investiaged on OSM and was advised by psychologists (see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/2/28/Motivation_VGI_Projekte_2009_vs_2011.pdf and https://www.fossgis.de/konferenz/2010/events/26.de.html ).
Comment from Mapanauta on 12 July 2018 at 22:56
When I see some comments like “women do not participate in OSM because they are not interested” is like listening the same argument 10 or 15 years ago about the lack in women in STEM majors. I am part of Geochicas initiative and I can share we need to create the necessary conditions to have a more diverse participation that will create an inclusive map. Since the beginning of may participation in OSM I have meet amazing people who has welcome me in the community but not all the people I know have had the same experience. So for those who are reluctant to believe there is a problem I kindly invite you to be part of the discussions and panels taking place in SOTMs and having a mind open to listen and being emphatic to other people experiences.
Comment from Geonick on 12 July 2018 at 23:43
This was not a comment but a reference to scientific work. So it’s me asking you to “listen” to evidences from (OSM specific!) research.
Being reproachful like “hey men, listen…” or “let’s create an inclusive map!” is not so productive in my experience, because most do listen (asides from mapping :-), and because OSM does already have quite an inclusive community and map according to the many mapping parties I organized and meetings I attended.
I’m supporting any initiative to welcome more women in OSM since 20 years, like Django Girls, PostgresWomen. My proposal is to be specific and one of my suggestions was regarding wording. Another suggestion is to support women - like you - who are an example of a a doer and a mapper.
Comment from amapanda ᚛ᚐᚋᚐᚅᚇᚐ᚜ 🏳️🌈 on 6 September 2018 at 10:10
Previously I said:
It would be remiss of me not to point out that the Indian courts have just overturned that law, and so this complaint no longer applies to upcoming SotM Asia 2018. 😁