OpenStreetMap
The database as well as the presentation of bicycle traffic is quite insufficient up to now:
The carriageway of many residential streets is a one way street for motor trafic but legally bidirectional for cycle trafic. In the specification of accessability, I have started to edit “cars - yes” and “biycles bidirectional”. When and how will this be visible in the mapnik?
In some countries biycle tracks along streets are compulsory, in others you may use them but it is not forbidden to cycle on the carriageway (what has proved to be much surer at intersections, where most accidents accur, in cities and villages).
Countries like Germany have started to distinguish compulsory and facultative cycle tracks. I have started (I hope, not only me!) to edit on such cycle tracks either “compulsory” or “facultative” instead of “designated”.
Ulamm
Discussion
Comment from ulamm on 20 May 2014 at 12:22
(Geodatum meines Wohnortes genauer)
Comment from ulamm on 20 May 2014 at 12:23
(Geodatum meines Wohnortes genauer)
Comment from Richard on 20 May 2014 at 13:54
It’s great to have new cycle mappers on board but -
Wow. No. Please don’t do that.
Making up new values such as “compulsory” and “facultative” will mean that routing software and renderers have no idea how to treat your data.
In addition, tag values should generally be commonly-understood British English where possible, and “facultative” certainly isn’t that.
Please use the tagging@ mailing list to discuss your ideas for tagging before arbitrarily changing data. Please also revert your changes. Thanks.
Comment from escada on 20 May 2014 at 14:50
Regarding the compulsory tag you invented, there is a proposal for this: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/use_sidepath It was discussed in the German community as well as on the Dutch forum and the tagging mailing. It is not approved yet. Please vote in favour of this proposal if it fits your needs
Comment from escada on 20 May 2014 at 14:53
Furthermore, which tags did you use for “cars - yes” and “biycles bidirectional” the official tags are motor_vehicle=yes and oneway:bicycle=no. See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bicycle for properly mapping bicycle ways.
Furthermore, I believe mapnik is not showing roads with oneway:bicycle=no differently than oneway streets without that tag
I hope this helps
Comment from ulamm on 20 May 2014 at 14:54
• Before I wrote “facultative”, I looked in Cassel’s :) But I don’t object to use “optional” instead. • If the cycletrack-tag is used, the existing ignorant renderers will show it as a cycletrack.* But the chance to get better renderers is bigger, if the recording of the informations wanted has already started. • Of course, the terms used must be as standardized as possible, even before they are accepted officially. • I hope to iniciate a local project for improving input and output of OSM. Perhaps that is more successful than to convince some people in California. • Thank you for telling me an address more central for my suggestions. *) The present OCM-renderer doesn’t tell you if a “cyclepath” is 3 meters of asphalt or 30 cm of ill-kept gravel, if it is a well traced smooth bikelane or of you are ordered to share a narrow sidewalk with the pedestrians. It is the expression of the belief, that any cyclepath were better than cycling on a road. That is worse than nothig. Ulamm
Comment from ulamm on 20 May 2014 at 15:29
Answers to Escada:
The tag suggested and approved in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/use_sidepath is also used, but it does not show your rights as a cyclist to cycle quicklier and surer than un cyclepaths.
The tags I have found for oneway streets were “yes”, “no” and “unknown”, the tags motor_vehicle = “yes” or “no” bicyle =”yes” or “no” were for the use of the carriageway at all, not for directions allowed.
Using one tag “highway=oneway street” and another tag “cycleway=no oneway street” seems nonsense, if motor traffic and cycling physically happen in the same part of the street.
Furthermore it is not helpful, if the ordinary editor does not show all tags for cycle trafic.
Ulamm
Comment from cartinus on 20 May 2014 at 16:07
See here how mappers around the world are tagging roads that are oneway for cars and bidirectional for bicycles. We have been doing this for years this way and it has been documented for a long time. It has also been visible for years on the OCM as two headed / two coloured arrows (see first link).
If you want to dream up a bunch of new tag values that nobody else uses or nows about, you break all the existing tools. If you want to add more information to the database add extra tags. If enough people find them interesting they will get used by them and picked up by the tools in due time.
Comment from zarl on 20 May 2014 at 16:09
Hey Ulamm,
please don’t make up your personal tagging style. Tagging is not only for a specially rendered map (did you have a look at the bicycle layer at all and dedicated bike maps?) but it is as well needed for routing. And yes, there are maps (e.g. for Garmin) which rely on proper (read: not your individual) tags to work for all cyclists. You’ll find loads of information here -> Für Kartografen
Comment from escada on 20 May 2014 at 16:20
I don’t know why oneway=yes and oneway:bicycle=no is nonsense, almost all oneway streets in Belgium are like that.
As you might now, the basic mapnik map is just that: one of the many possible renderings. The opencycle map might be better suited for your needs or the OpenFietsMap [1] map for garmin devices. They are more targetted towards cyclists. They do differentiate between paved and unpaved cycleways.
The “ordinary” editor allows you to add any tag, valid and invalid. It does not necessarily show a different color or line width depending on the tags. JOSM, the offline editor, is much more powerful, and allows you define your own rendering styles depending on the tags found on the ways and nodes.
As the others mentioned, please get in touch with others before composing your own set of tags. Especially, with countries with a lot of cyclist (Holland, Germany, Denmark, UK) and see how they tag. The problems you try to solve have been discussed there. The tagging mailing list is one way, the Dutch and German forums is another way.
[1] http://www.openfietsmap.nl/
Comment from ulamm on 20 May 2014 at 18:01
I didn’t call it a nonsense to open one way roads for bidirectional cycle traffic. I’ve called it a nonsense to mark two ways, one for cars and one for cycling, if there is one way for both in reality. (I enjoy this kind of regulations in Belgium and France as well as in Germany, Switzerland, Czechia and Austria.)
And I have complained that by the data-construction of OSM the possibility of marking the different regulations for different kinds of vehicles is hidden.
Ulamm
Comment from ulamm on 20 May 2014 at 18:09
To Zarl: I know authors of Lübeck cyclemap and I shall contact them personally.
Ulamm
Comment from RobJN on 20 May 2014 at 18:45
Hi Ulamm,
It’s it’s not clear, how to tag a oneway street that is bidirectional for cyclists, let me just recap: * You draw a way (line) representing the street. * To this line you add both tags “oneway=yes” and “oneway:bicycle=no” (plus the highway=* tag to identify what type of road it is.
The way it works is that there is a transport hierarchy [1]. The first tag (oneway=yes) marks the road as oneway for all traffic, and the second tag (oneway:bicylce=no) in effect removes the oneway obligation for bicycles.
I hope that helps.
Oh and just to clarify, OpenStreetMap is not a Californian project. Legally it is registered in the UK, but it has no office, no paid employees. It’s a community project run by ordinary folks. The tags we use have been decided through open community involvement. Using something other than these tags makes it harder for our data consumers to use. For example, Richard who first replied to you has built a cycle website that uses OpenStreetMap data to build a cycle routing map [2]. Richard would not have been able to do this if everyone used different tags.
[1] See the diagram for the transport hierarchy - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Key:access [2] http://cycle.travel/map
Comment from RobJN on 20 May 2014 at 18:48
Hmm, what’s going on with my formatting. Lets try again:
If it’s not clear, how to tag a oneway street that is bidirectional for cyclists, let me just recap:
Comment from ulamm on 20 May 2014 at 19:13
The Lübeck team already has developed an enlarged code, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_kartieren_L%C3%BCbecker_Methode For German conditions it is very good. For the compulsory cycletracks they use “bicycle=designated” or “bicycle=official”, for the optional ones “cycling=yes”. The letter one is o.k. For the compulsory ones “bicycle=designated” is specifically German, as in France there are two different signs, the round one for the compulsoray cycletracks and a rectangular one for the optional cycletracks. And “offical” is not better as the optional ones are official, too.
Ulamm
Comment from ulamm on 20 May 2014 at 20:43
Hi Robjn:
Thank you for your help! I was inactive in OSM for about 2 years.Therefore I forgot some tricks. Obviously now I have met a minor editor. If It would have shown me that tag, I wouldn’t have invented a new one.
Nevertheless I’d like to suggest a simplification: If vor each kind of trafic “yes” would be for bidirectional and “oneway” (instead of “yes”) would be for unidirectional, the code would be shorter, less work for the authors and less work for the renderer machines.
Ulamm
Comment from RobJN on 20 May 2014 at 21:59
Ulamm,
No worries. I’m happy to help :-) Tagging is quite a complex thing to get right when you start to look at all the different things OpenStreetMap contributors want to add. The “restrictions” tags now follow a standard format:
1. Basic restrictions
These are the ones most people are used to. For example:
2. Intermediate restrictions
These are of the format <restriction>:<transport mode>:<direction>=<restriction value> with the tag including either <transport mode>, or <direction>, or both. For example:
Note that this means that when someone tags bicycle=no they actually mean access:bicyle=no. However due to the long-standing use of <transport mode>=* these shorter versions are more common (new tagging schemas aim to be backward compatible).
3. Advanced conditional restrictions
These are used when there are conditions set on the restriction (e.g. the restriction only applies during certain hours / when the road is wet / etc).
They build upon the format in 2 above. You can read more at: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:conditional
Comment from zarl on 20 May 2014 at 23:15
Comment from ulamm: “To Zarl: I know authors of Lübeck cyclemap and I shall contact them personally.”
Sounds to me a little bit like “I’m going to make him an offer he can’t refuse.” - Do I need to be scared now? ;-)
Come on, I know that there are two different ways to map / tag cycle ways in Germany. If you followed my link you maybe noticed the part about “Meinungsstreit Radverkehrsanlagen kartieren” where this is discussed for Germany. Which one of these two options do actually meet your individual criteria?