What else could be the reason why mappers come across a "missing" tunnel tag, if not due to its rendering? And why do you keep referring to a forum on Austria when you know that sewers exist all over the world? Do you want them tagged differently in each country?

This changeset has been reverted fully or in part by changeset/138391703 where the changeset comment is: revert 138391107

As already said, I can bring in people who confirm this is not a tunnel. It seems the only reason why you are so obsessed with the tunnel tag is to make it render it dashed in Carto. If you want to tag for the renderer, we can talk about it, but first of all you need to admit it!

Which "wider audience" are you talking about? My target audience is the data consumers, and the language to tell them is the OSM tags. My target audience is *not* Nehegreb or Kevin Kofler, and they don't even want to know. Otherwise they would have asked me. They never did!

There's no "correct" way of mapping sewers, as they are rarely mapped. As far as I know, I'm the only one who has ever mapped a sewer in Austria. I wasn't even sure which waterway=* tag to choose, because there's zilch documentation on sewer tagging. Where no tagging scheme exists, mappers can make up their own ("use any tag you like"). But either way, it should be up to the mappers and experts to work out tagging schemes. You can't dictate pilots how to tag airports when you have never even seen one.

I already explained (mostly in German, but anyway) why I think I'm right. I would basically just copy&paste it all to the forum, and the others would do the same, and then what?
If an "executive decision" is against me, I'm done with OSM. It's not just about one tag or one object. It's about the appreciation of ground work and expertise. OSM started as a counterpoint to Wikipedia: While "original research" is forbidden in Wikipedia, it was encouraged in OSM. Data derived from GPS was preferred over imported data. That has very much reversed. Surveyed data gets overwritten by imported data or data from arial images, and tags chosen by the original mappers get replaced by tags chosen by validators. As I have already mentioned, some people even get paid for changing the data. We mappers get nothing. I've spent 13 years of my life for OSM and probably tens of thousands of € for fuel and never got anything in return. The only thing that mappers like me can get is the appreciation of our work. I don't see that anymore. This debate tops it all. People edit my object without even knowing what it is, and without asking. They start an edit war and then say I started it (double absurd when I'm the creator). After starting an edit war, they complain to the DWG. This is all unbelievable. The fact that the DWG hasn't already decided in my favor tells how broken OSM is. If the DWG now decides that changing other people's work is more welcome than contributing own work, there is no longer a point in contributing own data whatsoever.

@SomeoneElse You didn't answer my questions, which were about the meaning of the word "passageway".
You know that forum discussions lead nowhere when there are different opinions. I see only 2 options to clear that up: Either the DWG decides who is right and who is wrong (which you obviously want to avoid), or by voting. The only valid way to initiate voting on globally used tags is via the standard proposal process. I hate to do all that work while those who started the edit war will have a good time on the beach, but that's how life is. If nobody would do the work, there would be no civilization.

@Woazboat: The tunnel=* tag in your example was set by an armchair mapper who had never been there. (Same as here.) The user is also infamous for connecting ways that shouldn't be connected. I think he gets paid for those validator "fixes", no matter whether they are right or wrong.

@SomeoneElse: tunnel=* is defined in the wiki as an "underground passageway". As a native English speaker, would you say that a cul de sac is a passageway? Is it a passage if all you can do is return to the starting point?

If the anwer is yes to both questions, I can try to write a clarification proposal (similar to what I've done for natural=cliff), but it will take me at least a week because I will be handicapped from chemotherapy.

@KaiRo: Why would it be visible on the surface if layer<0 or location=underground is set? Are you talking about Carto rendering? Maybe it's just a Carto bug? Or location=underground (which is currently not set) fixes Carto rendering? If it's not about rendering, but just about tagging, then I'm curious if you want to make tunnel=* compulsory on all linear underground objects, or if there are any exceptions. The next question would be whether you wish to deprecate location=underground in favor of tunnel=*.

Yes, if they have an entrance on each end. A tunnel=* tag signals the renderer to render an underground passage with an entrance on each side so viewers know they can get out at the other end. It's dangerous to add tunnel=* tags to objects that don't have that other entrance, as it would mislead viewers into thinking they can get out at the other end when they actually can't. They get deeper and deeper into it and potentially get stuck. Note that this particular sewer gets tighter the deeper you crawl into it. Even if you don't get stuck, you may lose orientation. There's no GPS inside and no mobile phone reception, even if you get close to one of the manholes. The danger is real, and armchair mappers have no idea about it. Do you want to be responsible when a serious incident happens? In the best case, OSM would only be in the news for causing a rescue operation. In the worst case, there would be an indictment for manslaughter, and the culprit wouldn't be me, that's for sure. Even if no incident occurs, the risk creation alone is already a violation of Austrian law. The criminal offence is called Gemeingefährdung (public endangerment), § 177 StGB (or now that you know about it, it would be intentional: § 176 StGB – the minimum jail term is 1 year).

@Woazboat Yes, it's a community project of 500000 mappers and not of your gang consisting of 3-or-so persons. One of them has already proven how much he ignores community decisions by changing the tagging of Begegnungszonen against a community voting in the Talk-AT mailing list. And none of you is a local mapper in the sense that you've ever been there. Out of those who have been there, there is a 100% agreement rate that this is not a tunnel.

You say that tunnel=* is used for passages that pass through something else, but this sewer doesn't pass through anything. As I have mentioned numerous times, it has an entrance on one end only. That's a difference to the discussion mentioned by Kuhni. He pointed out that there is another entrance (where the Knotzenbach goes underground). That's why I left his tunnel=* tag in place, even though he allowed me to remove it. Another difference is that he *is* a local mapper who contributes, whereas the people involved in this edit war with me are not.

tunnel=* neither means that an object is underground, nor do all underground objects need a tunnel=* tag. location=underground exists for that purpose, and/or layer<0 (which is already set). Apart from that, I can only repeat my request to all quarrelers to go there and see what it looks like before you steal my time.

@SomeoneElse I can find no such "golden rule" in the wiki, and I bet there never was. A rule that is in the Wiki is the "on the ground rule" (osm.wiki/Disputes#On_the_Ground_Rule). I'm the only mapper who has been inside this sewer and knows what it looks like. The others are armchair mappers who have not even been at the entrance. I already explained to them that this is a sewer and why it's not a tunnel, but they didn't even care to read, and were still talking about a brook. It's ridiculous.

Are you sure you got your forum link right? It does not lead to any discussion about sewers or tunnels. Both are not specific to Austria anyway. The lack of a forum or ML discussion on this topic indicates that the people who started quarreling aren't independent of each other, but it's only one (Negreheb) who brought in all of his friends. Otherwise they couldn't have posted all within just a few hours. There's no way they would ever have come across this sewer, let alone all at the same time.

Do you think this should be a game of "You bring all of your friends, and I bring all of my friends, and then let's fight" ? Can't we just choose the tags based on the facts?

I know what a tunnel is, and what is not. I have been surveying natural and artificial caves for 13 years, and I'm officially responsible for man-made underground facilities at the region's cave club. To make sure, I asked a club mate who has been involved in tunnel construction planning, and he confirmed that this is not a tunnel. I can forward you his mail. It would be easy for me to outnumber Negreheb and his friends by bringing some of the 500 members of our club, but again, that would be ridiculous. And frankly speaking, my club mates wouldn't love to waste their time on such a needless debate. Most of them are hard-working people who have better things to do.

This changeset has been reverted fully or in part by changeset/138181905 where the changeset comment is: Löschung rückgängig, siehe note #3767312

Danke für den Hinweis. Das war keine Absicht und ich hoffe es jetzt behoben zu haben.

Nach Schmidl 1831 (Schilderungen vaterländischer Gebirgsgegenden, Band 1) S. 116, müsste der Predigtstuhl ("ein turmähnlicher ganz freier Felsen") der Klapf südlich von der Burg sein. Ich hab mir erlaubt, ihn dort hinzuschieben, weil die vorherigen Koordinaten unmöglich stimmen können. Dort ist weder ein Felsen noch ein Gipfel. Die Lage in der Administrativkarte ist offensichtlich ungenau.

Zu way/1020729508 :
Warum vehicle=forestry? In Google Streetview (Aufnahme August 2022) ist da noch kein Fahrverbot sichtbar, sondern ein öffentlicher Parkplatz. Außerdem stellt ein Fahrverbot highway=tertiary in Frage.

Please don't add surfaces when you don't know. You set surface=asphalt, but in fact it's wood.

Thanks. Should be fixed now. This happens every now and then when I input a tag and press copy, because Merkaartor processes those events in the wrong order.

This changeset has been reverted fully or in part by changeset/137468175 where the changeset comment is: revert 137463961

This changeset has been reverted fully or in part by changeset/137391938 where the changeset comment is: revert 137378350

Nein, es ist kein Bach, sondern ein Kanal! Um das herauszufinden hätte es gereicht, mich einfach zu fragen. Von mir ist alles öffentlich, von der Mailadresse bis zur Telefonnummer. Wer weiter über das Tagging diskutieren will, der möge sich bitte vorher den Kanal vor Ort anschauen, mit Stirnlampe und evtl. Gummistiefeln. Ansonsten vertraut bitte darauf, dass ich mich besser als ihr mit dem Tagging unterirdischer Objekte auskenne. Ich kartiere seit 13 Jahren für OSM und bin beim Höhlenverein für künstliche Anlagen zuständig. Ich bin immer bemüht, mein Wissen weiterzugeben, und nehme auch gern Anregungen entgegen. Aber ich habe keine Lust mit Leuten herumzustreiten, die keine Ahnung habe, aber glauben mich belehren zu können oder meine Objekte hinterrucks umtaggen.