OpenStreetMap

pound vs pinfold

Posted by b-unicycling on 17 January 2024 in English. Last updated on 29 January 2024.

In addition to the previous diary post, I want to quickly show why I think that historic=pinfold should be deprecated.

When I started mapping historic pounds with historic=pound, it was pointed out to me that the value I should use was in fact “pinfold”. I had only ever seen “Pound” on old maps, so I presumed that that was the standard word used by cartographers, but I did my due diligence to find out.

Collins Dictionary differentiates by animal kept in the enclosure: “pound” for dogs and cats and “pinfold” for cattle and sheep. No room for pigs, geese, goats and donkeys. I had my suspicion that that was not a very precise definition.

I sent an email to Historic England, because they use both terms in their database; I’m still waiting for the verdict. (Edit 2024-01-29: Their reply email said that they were two words used for the same concept. I don’t find that very helpful. They sent a list of all their pounds and pinfolds, but I didn’t want to look into the copyright license issue, so I ignored that. If anyone is interested, I can forward the list.)

While I was waiting, I searched for “animal pound”, “village pound” and “pinfold” on Wikimedia and, after comparing the GPS provided there with what was visible on aerial imagery and sometimes streetview imagery (rarely, because they are mostly found in villages with no streetview coverage), added them using historic=pound for the ones where the file name and description contained “pound” and historic=pound + pound=pinfold to the ones that were called “pinfold” on Wikimedia. This enabled me to create a distribution map for both terms. (There were also “pounds” in Wales, but I left them out for this search.) The “pinfold” cases were mostly confirmed by the Historic England database which I consulted to add HE_ref to the ones already found on Wikimedia. Some Wikimedia entries also had the number already provided.

(There are possibly another >160 unmapped pounds, bc Historic England alone has 268 listed, and some of the ones on Wikimedia are not listed buildings.)

I could have saved myself a lot of work by just searching for place names such as streets, roads and junctions named after the location of the pound/ pinfold. I don’t know what the chances are of a street being named after the currency or a car pound, but the results again show a regional distribution:

After this, I am very convinced that the difference is one in dialect and not in function.

I also searched for pubs and restaurants containing either term, but there were too few results to make any judgement; there was one containing “Pinfold” and about 5 containing “Pound”.

Good to see that OSM can be used for some quick linguistic research.

Discussion

Comment from SomeoneElse on 18 January 2024 at 13:49

“pinfold” would definitely be preferable to me to “pound”, as “pinfold” doesn’t have several other meanings (some similar, some very different).

We wouldn’t want people to get confused between (say) a police dog pound or a car pound and one of these historical animal enclosures.

At the risk of adding to the confusion, “penfold” is also used.

Also, it’s a bit odd that there are none of these in Scotland and few in Wales (but there are in Ireland and England). Maybe there are other names too? You mentioned perhaps trying to talk to CADW elsewhere; maybe the Scottish National Trust might be another avenue?

Comment from b-unicycling on 19 January 2024 at 01:30

I’ve just checked Canmore; they also call them “pound” and list 7 of them. They don’t have “pinfold” as a classification.

I’m still waiting to be shown a historic car pound in real life or in a heritage database.

I understand that you feel more comfortable with “pinfold”, but most people in Ireland, Scotland, Wales and New England will probably not know what it is, because they all use(d) “pound”.

The value is now documented in the Wiki, so anyone in doubt can read there how to use the tag, so there shouldn’t be any confusion.

Comment from chris_debian on 28 January 2024 at 12:37

Could we have:

historic=animal enclosure,

Then

  1. animal enclosure=pinfold
  2. animal enclosure=pound

or, similar? This means that the historic dialect variation is retained.

Cheers,

Chris

Comment from trigpoint on 28 January 2024 at 12:47

Another term used is Sheepfold.

That brings back memorys of possibly seeing the word on OS maps.

Comment from chris_debian on 28 January 2024 at 13:01

Yep, I know that one, from old :-)

Comment from SomeoneElse on 28 January 2024 at 13:47

Sheepfolds are functionally different - often present in upland areas for when a farmer wants to gather sheep together (e.g. for shearing). A pinfold is for rounding up “stray” sheep in a village (and, according to some of the signs, billing the owner for not looking after them properly).

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/historic=animal_enclosure#overview hasn’t troubled the scorers yet, but if it did we’d have to be careful not to group together items which had different function. At least “pinfold” and “pound” were functionally the same thing!

Comment from b-unicycling on 28 January 2024 at 15:57

I agree with SomeoneElse that they have different functions and should be tagged different.

However, having looked at the 7 entries for “pound” on the Canmore database, they looked more like sheepfolds to me (location in remote areas and size) and were called either “Sheepfold” or “Cattlefold” on the old OS maps. That does not mean that we have to follow their example. 7 is of course not a representative number, but these are the only listed monuments I could find.

It could also be that people in Ireland used “pound” for any type of enclosure, including the ones were a fee has to be paid AND sheepfolds/ cattlefolds. As I have laid out in my video about them, the accounts in the Schools’ Collection rarely explain the function of the enclosure referred to as “pound”.

The National Monuments Service in the Republic of Ireland only has a category “enclosure” which could be anything from a unidentified ringfort (plough-levelled) to an unidentified ecclesiastical enclosure (i.e. early monastery site) to an animal enclosure to possibly even some burial site. It’s can be hard to tell, when you only see a cropmark on aerial imagery, and you can’t go excavating 10,000+ enclosures to figure out what they were used for.

Comment from amapanda ᚛ᚐᚋᚐᚅᚇᚐ᚜ 🏳️‍🌈 on 30 January 2024 at 16:15

The pound vs pinfold map looks like a Danelaw map. AIUI there are many english etymology differnces that spring from that. Is this another?

Comment from b-unicycling on 30 January 2024 at 18:11

@amanda, I noticed that too. But both words are of Anglo-Saxon/ Old English/ Old Saxon origin, as far as I’m aware. Maybe “pund” is something naughty in Old Norse, so they continued only with the synonym. :D

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