OpenStreetMap
An e-mail to the Norwegian list, got me thinking on how to get access to the Norwegian national borders. The fact that someone think you should be paying royalty to know where your country ends, sounds a bit strange.
Step 1: Ask the Norwegian Border Commision for more information about the Norwegian-Russian border. There are some maps on their web page (presumably in the public domain, Norwegian law Åndsverksloven §9).
I sent them the following e-mail today:
I forbindelse med arbeid for OpenStreetMap.org, har jeg behov for å tegne inn den norsk-russiske grense i et kart. Jeg er klar over at Norsk Eiendomsinformasjon selger tilgang til en database der denne informasjonen inngår, men dessverre gjør deres lisensbetingelser at jeg ikke kan benytte meg av denne den.
Jeg lurer derfor på:
* Har dere koordinater for grensemerkene, og i hvilket format er disse eventuelt tilgjengelig?
* Finnes det, utover grensekartene, noen informasjon om hvor djupålen i grensevassdragene går?
På forhånd takk for svar.
Discussion
Comment from msiebuhr on 18 November 2008 at 19:45
How about asking the Russians?
(Assuming Norway and Russia actually agree on where the border goes...)
Comment from Gustav F on 18 November 2008 at 19:53
For a starter, I don't understand Russian. In addition, I don't think there are any laws in Russia requiring public agencies to disclose information.
Comment from eAi on 19 November 2008 at 01:36
If you ask them both, they might come back with different answers and you'll be responsible for starting World War III.
Comment from Pixel83 on 19 November 2008 at 11:31
Hehe, my first thought, too: What if the answers differ?
On the other hand, I'd be really surprised if they would be identical...
Comment from Gustav F on 19 November 2008 at 12:00
There are two answers to this question:
The first is: Would you get identical answers if you asked Norwegian and Russian mapping agnecies about where the border is?
Probably not. Different coordinate systems, at least, could give a very minor difference.
The second is: Would officials from both countries point at the same point, if asked out in the field?
Proably, within a few millimetres. The border is marked with two poles 4 metres apart. The border is exactly in the middle, and runs in straight line between these points. Where there is a sharp turn, they look slightly different. See pictures at http://www.grensekom.no/merkinggrensen.php and http://www.grensekom.no/conduct%20and%20travel%20at%20the%20border.php
Along rivers, it is my understanding that there is not better definition of the border, than "the deepest point". This might also give a margin of error of at least few centimetres.
Comment from alv on 20 November 2008 at 07:37
The land borders between Finland and Sweden and Finland and Norway run mostly along a river. I was searching for their data from the local officials but found only some information: the borders are checked by both countries authorities every 20 or 10 years to see if the deepest or "main" route of the river has changed considerably. The surveyors jointly produce a list of the control points for each country's higher officials to approve later on. Last time this was done Finland gained a small island but lost some even smaller islets, if I remember correctly.
On the Russian border the same procedure has been carried out sometime but there's no river, only the poles, so it's more straightforward and even considered more seldom.
Comment from Gustav F on 20 November 2008 at 08:13
As far as I have been able to find oout, all the Norwegian land borders are surveyed approxemately every 25 years.
The Norwegian-Russian border was fully surveyed in 1947, with only a partial survey in 1980-1982. A new full survey was planned in 2007, but is now expected to be surveyed in 2009, with final results ready in 2011 or 2012.
The Norwegian-Finnish border was last surveyed in 2000. The protocol includes ortophoto maps in scale 1:20000 for borders in rivers and lakes, and 1:50000 for the rest of the border. All documentation was also recorded on a CD.
The Norwegian-Swedish border was last surveyed in 1984-1987. New surveyed planned 2009.