OpenStreetMap

As I am rather new to OSM, I find it very interesting how the process of getting to know how to do things really differs from other projects.

Two years ago I was new to a Java application. I only had little experience with Java, even less with how to make use of Java-specific editor features and how to structure a Java application. So other people showed me how to use Eclipse, I started to read the source code of the project part by part and searched for more detailed information on Google. Once I found information about one topic, I knew how to do it. After one week, I was totally familiar with the structure of the project, knew where to find the information I needed and could change anything I wanted to.

With OpenStreetMap, the process of getting to know it is completely different. As a beginner, you can do things without noticing that you actually don’t know how to do them. You beginn to cycle around in your area and take a photo of everything you think is important. Then, when you want to get your changes into the map, you suddenly notice that you missed some information without even knowing that you needed it. OSM does not tell you what to map, you can map whatever you want, and suddenly you read somewhere on the Wiki that someone has mapped something you’ve seen during your trip, and you have to go there again because you hadn’t thought of mapping something like that.

It happens to me very often that I wanted to map something and did that some way that I thought was that right way to do it. Then suddenly, I read someone’s comment on the Wiki, who describes a problem with the way I mapped it, so I see that I have to change hundreds of things I mapped. Often, there is no “right” way to do something, and in that case, there is usually no page on OSM that lists all different ways to do it, instead you stumble upon a new way to do something occasionally that you didn’t know before. This seems to be the main difference of OSM compared to other projects. Often, there is no “right” and “official” way to do something, and most of the time, “unofficial” things get official by many people using them (and not because they are the best way to do it). Sometimes though, unofficial things you have to use and that seem to be used by everyone else are changed suddenly and you have to update everything you’ve mapped.

In other projects, people sometimes discover a problem with the current concept that is being used. They post the problem on a mailing-list or a forum, then a huge discussion is started and finally a solution is decided and used. In OSM however, you don’t have to be an expert knowing every detail of the project structure to find problems with the current concept. In fact, every beginner discovers things that he simply can’t map with the current tagging behaviour.
In OSM, the first hard thing to do is to find out that this problem has already been discovered. Often, there are many threads on the mailing-list or in the forum that talk about the problem you face, but you have only used the Wiki until now and haven’t found anything there. Hundreds of people give proposals to the same problem in different places, but no one collects all suggestions and lists them on the Wiki. So people keep “discovering” a problem again and again, and either some of the old arguments are mentioned again, or older discussions that aren’t active anymore are linked, so the user “discovering” the problem has no way to contribute his opinion to the discussion. If he comes up with some new argument considering an old proposal, people don’t want to discuss the same topic again.
The second hard thing to do is to decide how to map the information you can’t tag at the moment. In OSM, it literally takes years until a proposal gets official, people discuss about a topic again and again, but somehow, no discussion comes to a conclusion.

The main problem I see about OSM is that different people discuss about the same topic in different places at different times, and no one and nothing connects them and collects all their arguments and opinions in one place to finally find an official solution. Beginners that want to contribute to the discussion have hundreds of places where solutions are discussed, different discussions come to different conclusions as different people are participating on them and no one knows what to do. I hope that the Wiki gets more structured in the future and that the process of finding a solution will occur by listing arguments on a clearly arranged page. I think by this, the proposals can get accepted much more faster than it is the case now. I find it very discouraging not to be able to map something you want, just because there is no official way to do it yet and thus no support in the editors and renderers.

Discussion

Comment from HannesHH on 3 April 2009 at 09:40

Hear hear! I think that OSM needs more centralisation and a somewhat strong hand/lead. The mailing lists are terrible, I peek in talk and talk-de maybe twice a month and always read 9 meaningless noise mails for one interesting one.

The News blog is more of a Useless blog. But seeing how it is not even OSM-exclusive I don't think I should rant too much. A true news blog with news also about the community's work and movements would be great. This could also help the newcomers.

A wiki approach is good for openness and collaboration. But without nice organisation and presentation the results are not presented "usefully".

Comment from Igor Shubovych on 3 April 2009 at 10:12

>The main problem I see about OSM is that different people discuss about the same topic in different places at different times.

Agree. Forum, mailing-lists, wiki in different languages, user diaries/blogs, IRC. Too much for non-geek.
There is only one thing connecting us - Google :)

Comment from njd27 on 3 April 2009 at 11:03

Worse is better.

Yes, we could have concentrated on building better tools and forums that didn't have these redundancies and contradictions. But the truth is that if OSM had taken this approach we'd still be arguing about what tags to use and no mapping would have got done.

The OSM approach is that getting data into the database is the primary consideration and we need to lower the barrier for that to happen. Making everything neat & tidy can come later.

Comment from Trabant on 3 April 2009 at 11:43

I'm new at OSM as well (joined a few weeks ago) and can understand Candid's points. But I also agree with njd27: Although I knew about OSM for a while, the decision to join came when I figured out that my neigborhood at OSM is missing a lot of streets and contains a lot of errors. Even the street I live in was named wrong. To start I needed just a few bits of information from the wiki and I could fix some major errors (thanks to practice mode in Potlatch).
I was confronted with information in German that was partly country specific and partly transformation and many information in English, some FAQ, some examples, some use cases, some proposals. And when I look at the map how others did the same, it was even different to what I sometimes read.
Nevertheless, I was able to start. But: OSM is far from usable for occasional users. You have to be willing to dig into the topic and *search* for what you think you need.

Comment from 42429 on 3 April 2009 at 13:40

Openstreetmap is an approach to display a complex world on a flat map. Mappers have to assign a limited choice of symbols to a variety of real objects. This categorization cannot be done by a single man in a limited period of time (though I am sometimes dreaming of doing it).

So we have different levels of coordination requirement:
1. For technical reasons, symbols are used worldwide.
2. However, real objects have attributes which are depending on their natural, cultural and economic environment. It is useless to talk with African mappers about the difference between forest and wood, because in Africa there are not many maintained forests. So you have to discuss these topics with mappers of your cultural neighborhood (i.e. your country).
3. For historical and political reasons, some real objects don't fit standardized patterns.
4. Some users do not agree to standardization proposals and continue to use their personal favorites in their mapping area. If you haven't seen the real object before, it is difficult to decide whether the symbol is appropriate.
5. Some users have tried to propose standardized rules in different places (diary, forum, mailing list, wiki), but these proposals have been forgotten.

Of course, it would be useful to create a common unified standardization system. However, programming of a self-selecting editor takes a lot of time and needs some active programmers.

Yours FK270673

Comment from blackest_knight on 3 April 2009 at 17:08

I've just started mapping in Ireland, and the biggest problem is trying to make ireland fit in with a system which intends to be precise but in ireland there isn't that kind of precision. people know places from whats there not what the place is called. which is fine if you know the area, but insanely hard if you don't.

There are place names of course but then an area gets that name and you can't tell where it begins or ends. I'm going to try my best to provide good data but unless you know where your going you will never know if your there or not.

Comment from laz on 4 April 2009 at 02:49

Which method of communication would you have us stop using?

(I'm not saying you're wrong; let's just see if there isn't some low-hanging fruit)

Comment from RussNelson on 4 April 2009 at 02:50

Argh, I was helping a friend learn to edit. Let me try again using my real name:
Which method of communication would you have us stop using?

(I'm not saying you're wrong; let's just see if there isn't some low-hanging fruit)

Comment from Candid Dauth on 4 April 2009 at 08:27

RussNelson, I would not remove any of of the methods of communication (although I think a mailing-list and a forum could well be combined, but this is more a general issue than OSM-specific). I only think it would be great if people would discuss their proposals only on the Wiki (and not propose it on the Wiki and discuss it on the mailing-list, the forum and the Wiki simultaneously). If a discussion about any tagging practice is happening on the mailing-list, people should at least write about the results and collect the arguments on the Wiki. One problem that prevents users from doing this at the moment is in my opinion that the Wiki is not structured enough (especially with the mixup of different languages).

Comment from Candid Dauth on 4 April 2009 at 08:31

I forgot to mention, what currently also happens very often is that new tagging practices are considered the best on the mailing-list, but pages describing these things aren’t updated on the Wiki and still describe the old practice. People don’t seem do see the Wiki as the standard reference for tagging.

Comment from RussNelson on 9 April 2009 at 16:59

Hmmm... I wonder if, as a start, it might be possible to automagically connect mailing list discussions with the associated wiki page. I'll look at doing that.

Comment from Candid Dauth on 13 April 2009 at 13:36

That would be a really cool innovation. It would searching the mailing-list a lot easier if there were links to related discussions on the Wiki pages.

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