OpenStreetMap
I’d like to start a discussion to arrive at a consensus of standardising placenames in Kurdistan Region of Iraq.
Please comment on this entry if you would like to participate, as well as your initial thoughts and ideas.
If we have enough people who are interested in this, I will set up a more permanent place and channel for discussion (a wiki page or a mailing list).
Discussion
Comment from subamiche on 24 September 2020 at 12:59
Good day, I will be like to participate. Regards,
Comment from SomeoneElse on 24 September 2020 at 14:17
From a Data Working Group perspective it’d be good to know what the various communities think about this, especially which languages and which dialects are actually in use where. With a DWG hat on I’ve occasionally had to fix issues here (such as when someone has set all language values on something to one value).
Regards,
Andy (from the DWG)
Comment from @$O on 26 September 2020 at 05:44
I would be willing to participate, Regards,
Comment from Ahmad-0772 on 27 September 2020 at 08:18
Hello im interested, can you message on Whatsapp or Viber on this number (+964 750 555 2005)
Comment from Bravo Mapper on 27 September 2020 at 11:28
With pleasure dear Okasz. Whenever you want to communicate, I can be available.
Comment from Øukasz on 29 September 2020 at 13:26
Thank you to everyone for responding!
subamiche, @$O, Ahmad-0772, Bravo Mapper - would you like to maybe start with providing your first point of view on how do you think names in KRI should be tagged? There is a lot of background resources we can look at for this, but maybe the best thing would be to first get your ‘raw’ ideas, if you agree?
I think for now comments in here are fine, if we need later we can create an OSM wiki page.
Comment from Mohammed Dizayee on 30 September 2020 at 14:28
Hi Lukasz! great to hear from you. I would be interesting to be patriciate as well. I think it would be great if we could identify minimum requirements for language, dialects, alphabetic (Arabic vs Latin) for each part of KRI.
Comment from Øukasz on 16 October 2020 at 08:43
If everyone prefers, I can start with a few points of my own. All of these are just subjective, so please feel free to discuss and disagree - in fact, this is the point to do so.
While English is one of the most common languages used in OpenStreetMap, the project is meant to be multilingual - both in terms of the geographic data, as well as the working communities. However, I, for one, cannot hold this conversation in any of the local languages, so if you want me to participate at least in the beginning, we can start in English. Then at some point we can move to one or all of the local languages. I know this is not ideal, but for me it is not possible otherwise. If you prefer to discuss in any other language, please do so.
For me personally the main objective of this conversation would be to stop situations where people change names back-and-forth because they each have opinion on what is ‘right.’ In fact, everyone may have good reasons, but are unwilling to compromise. I’d like to have such a compromise established, and enough people agree to it that it becomes stable.
For this to work, we need to have a lot of people participate from the beginning, hear different points of view, and agree on a system that perhaps isn’t perfect for any one individual, but is a compromise that works well for most. Particularly, it would be great to make sure that speakers of Sorani, Kurmanji, Neo Aramaic (Chaldean and Assyrian), Gorani, Azeri/Turkomen and Arabic (have I missed any other?) all could contribute. I’ll try to invite more people to this discussion, but please also do so if you can.
Since we are talking about writing names, it is important to distinguish between language (e.g. English, Sorani, Russian, Chaldean Neo Aramaic) and script (e.g. Latin, Persian, Syriac). There are ways of transcribing and transliterating between various combinations of the above, but it looks to me that the easiest thing is to have a one-to-one relationship between languages and scripts. For example:
I think it is especially likely to have confusion here when someone uses “Kurdish” label when editing OSM - which refers to Kurmanji - but the types the Sorani name:
A few years ago I started working on this topic and came up with a rather complex example, which I now think can be simplified to match the table above.
OSM allows tagging each language separately, explicitly specifying which language any given name is in (
name:ku,name:ckb). But of course there is also the mainnametag, which according to OSM rules should be in the local language. This could mean to confusing situations. For example: Duhok mainnamecould be in Kurmanji (Hawar script), but Erbil main name would be in Sorani (Sorani script) - so a situation where two of the main cities in KRI have main names in different languages. Following this thinking, Christian villages in KRI where for example Chaldean is the main language, should have the mainnametag in Chaldean. Another solution could be trying to put together multiple languages in the mainnametag - it is used for example in Morocco. Yet another solution could be to try to agree on a single language to use across KRI, which would also have its own upsides and downsides.A lot of my thinking is informed by comments made by Ghybu (on the wiki)[https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Iraq] when I first started asking questions about this topic. Many thanks to him for this, and I really hope he joins this conversation.
Finally, a point that I think will be the most difficult to have all the OSM users agree on, which is handling of Arabic names. Arabic is official language for Iraq, and one of official languages of KRI. Internationally, KRI is recognised as part of Iraq, and Arabic names are often used for many places in KRI. Additionally many historical data specify Arabic names for places inside KRI. My opinion is that it is useful to keep these names in OSM under the
name:artag (not the mainnametag), and that removing Arabic names from places in KRI is not helpful.So to conclude, let me know your opinions on:
nametag? Which language?Comment from Bravo Mapper on 16 October 2020 at 13:29
Dear Okasz ,
Here are very quick facts. I hope you focus on them without being bored. I am writing them on purpose so that no one else can cheat you :
a. Federal gov in Baghdad the capital that identifies ONLY (1) language for government and all formal correspondence which is Arabic
The constitution of the whole iraq stipulates that the both Arabic & kurdish are the ONLY 2 formal languages in Iraq.
besides those 2, we have other large ethnicity in other Iraqi provinces In the constitution, these provinces are called “the disputed areas” one of which is my province “Kirkuk” In kirkuk, we have (5) spoken languages “Arabic, Kurdish, Turkomani, Assyrians, Chaldeans” I recommend that “the 5 languages are a legitimate right” for each ethnicity. each alphabet can be a Tag :
name:ckb name:Ar . . . . . . etc but for the tag (Name) I recommend a great thing which is based on satisfaction ツ
Comment from Øukasz on 16 October 2020 at 15:24
Hello, thanks for this - this is very helpful!
Can you please explain a little more what you mean by:
Comment from Bravo Mapper on 22 October 2020 at 19:39
Ok dear Okasz. I will talk only about Kirkuk which is a Disputed Area between the federal government in the Capital Baghdad and the Kurdistan Region in the north & east.
In Kirkuk, lives (5) ethnicities : Kurds, Arabs, Turkomanis, Assyrians, Chaldeans. They all have different spoken language.
Every one of them live in a certain part in the province including the city center and the villages and towns under it.
In Kirkuk as a province, you can find neighbourhoods or vicinities dwelt by purely one component and it has been like that since ever .
NOW, my recommendation is that : The tag (namage) of any vicinity or town or neighborhood or village might be written in the language of the population or at least the majority of the population and if that language doesnot have a written form or alphabet, we use Arabic instead.
This is the tag (name). Of course it can be accompanied by other tags like : Name: Ara Name: CKB Name:Kur Name:en
My recommendation finished.
Thank you .
Comment from Øukasz on 4 December 2020 at 08:37
Bravo Mapper,
I think that your recommendation
sounds pretty much exactly like the standard OSM procedure:
A good way is to always look for signposts, for example
I wonder what do the others think?
Comment from Bravo Mapper on 23 December 2020 at 07:37
Yes dear Øukasz. Writing the road signs in the language of the majority of the natives is a legitimate right . It gives the passers-by that the site has a historical root.
Thank you .