These deletions were done by a user with a previous history of vandalism of mountain bike trails.

The North Shore Mountain Bike Association has posted a blog post that says this trail is planned to be decommissioned by Metro Vancouver Water District staff.

https://nsmba.ca/trail-decommissioning-and-sabotage/

The trail access tags already reflect the closure status.

The trail has not been confirmed to have been completely decommissioned and should not be deleted as a result. Once sufficient decommissioning is confirmed the prefix "demolished" or "removed" should be added to the highway path tag.

The North Shore Mountain Bike Association has posted a blog post that says this trail is planned to be decommissioned by Metro Vancouver Water District staff.

https://nsmba.ca/trail-decommissioning-and-sabotage/

The trail access tags already reflect the closure status.

The trail has not been confirmed to have been completely decommissioned and should not be deleted as a result. Once sufficient decommissioning is confirmed the prefix "demolished" or "removed" should be added to the highway path tag.

Also note that the in-person signage now matches the "name" tag.

Hello Glassman

Considering all of the information provided below, the ground truth policy, and best practices for user safety, I am strongly against the removal of this trail.

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I have had conversations with two users regarding this trail.

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User "dalbertlebrun" had previously sent me a message in April of 2024 regarding this trail and others in the region. dalbertlebrun is a GIS specialist and new member of North Shore Search and Rescue (NSR). dalbertlebrun requested several trails be removed, some that are difficult and may pose dangerous to inexperienced users and some that pose no danger but are wanted removed for social reasons. I explained to dalbertlebrun that the OSM US Trails Working Group had recently done work to ensure that trails with certain tags show up with less emphasis or not at all in mainstream applications to discourage inexperienced users. I also explained that the best approach would be for members of the NSR group to contribute to OpenStreetMap to ensure all trails are tagged fully and correctly. I also said that I was open to reviewing trails if there was a specific rescue case. dalbertlebrun has not reached out to me again and members of the NSR group have not contributed to OpenStreetMap.

It is of my opinion that the NSR group is the likely complainant group. Several of the groups members have a very poor understanding of OpenStreetMap and have several falsehoods leading back to a case that happened 6 years ago. It is also my understanding that the group has not contributed to OpenStreetMap even after several offers were made and assistance was sought over the past several years.

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User "Bookwus" had previously sent me a message in August of 2024 regarding the "Taint" trail and of trails in general. Bookwus stated:

"I believe these should be mapped in OSM, but they shouldn’t necessarily be published in other apps like AllTrails or GaiaGPS. A specific example is the Taint at Grouse Mountain area. This trail is in an area with many hikers who might be tempted to try it if they see it on a map, but due to the serious exposure and the requirement for solid scrambling skills (making it unsuitable for beginners), this could lead to severe accidents."

I explained to Bookwus how tagging can alter rendering in mainstream applications and we ultimately jointed decided to upgrade the sac_scale tag from "alpine_hiking" to "demanding_alpine_hiking", which Bookwus undertook in changeset #155799247. This will result in the trail no longer showing up at all in the most popular mainstream applications (AllTrails and GaiaGPS). AllTrails has already updated their OSM dataset and the trail no longer shows up. GaiaGPS has not updated their OSM dataset yet.

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If there is a specific rescue or near miss case then I am open to reviewing the trails tagging again to ensure it is accurately described. I will prioritize a re-survey of this trail in the near future to double check it's current tagging given it's heightened use.

Thank you, eerib

I don't believe this is designated as a forest service road anymore. The government permit dataset shows this as a permit road under Hillcore Lakeside Pacific Forest Products Ltd with the road section id (name) of "T1".

It may be that the "Talc Creek Forest Service Road" name comes from the new backroadstatus.com website. That operator of that website often makes up names for roads or uses very out of date maps (Backroad Map books) in coming up with the names of roads.

Hello OpenStreets604,

I have reverted this changeset as it reverts the official name of the park to a previous official name. All signage within the park has been confirmed to have been switched over.

I understand and share concern about the name change of this park from Colony Farm to ƛ̓éxətəm. The issue of blending two different languages in official names creates significant usability and safety issues but is one that citizens of the region need to take up with the respective government responsible for the name change.

What I have done to try to ameliorate some of the issues created is to add alt_name, loc_name, old_name, and old_name:1996--2003 with the Colony Farm naming. This ensures the park still shows up when using a Nominatum-based search. You might not be able to see all of these tags when editing from Organic Maps but will be able if you edit from openstreetmap.org.

Cheers, eerib

Hello mycontactname,

I originally named this orchard as "White Swan Public Orchard" as that was the name used in the numerous marketing and development materials presented by the developer John Reid. This name was also frequently used in stories within the Bowen Island Undercurrent.

I checked the parcel ownership and it shows as Strata Common Property, so perhaps "public" in the name is not correct anymore. I checked the latest materials from the developer and the name "White Swan Orchard" and "Orchard" are used.

The most common name appears to be "White Swan Orchard" so as a result I've switched it to that while also keeping the name you added as the alternative name.

If you know if the "White Swan" naming is no longer going to be used going forward then please do change the name again. For searchability and emergency purposes you can also add the old name using the "old_name" tag.

Thank you, eerib

Good catch. The road was marked retired by the Ministry of Forests in 2012 so it is no longer a forest service road.

Unfortunately, the Province has a mess of road data so there is no authoritative a dataset for roads to get updated data from. Generally in cases like this, I go with the last name for the road or whatever is posted in-person.

However, the Whistler Olympic Park has published maps and calls it "Madeley Road" so that is likely what it is signed as in-person and listed as in internal government maps.

https://www.whistlerolympicpark.com/sites/default/files/2024-07/WOP-SummerMap-v4-23July.pdf

So I've changed it to:

name=Madeley Road
&
old_name=Madeley Forest Service Road

changeset/158181462

Feel free to change it if you see something different in-person. I don't normally visit this area so likely won't visit in-person for at least a few years.

Cheers, eerib

Hello _BAR_,

Thank you for taking the time to reach out to me with your concerns.

I highly recommend that trail builders and other advocates you know join the OSM Trails Working Group. The group consists of multiple stakeholders including government organizations, land managers, parks agencies, and app developers and are working on issues similar to those you’ve described. This group would be the place to advocate for structural changes to OSM data, a new policy and/or tagging schema for trails that may be considered secret, and how that data is used within outdoor navigation apps.

https://openstreetmap.us/news/2021/12/osmus-trails-working-group/

You could start with a discussion within the #trails channel on this Slack workspace.

https://openstreetmap.us/get-involved/slack/

One of the main initiatives to come out of the working group so far is a tagging schema for unsanctioned and informal trails. What they have come up with is to display those trails with significantly less emphasis and sometimes prevent routability based on various criteria. Currently both AllTrails and GaiaGPS are piloting this approach with results being closely monitored within a few study areas. You can see an example of this with the trails in the Boulder Creek area of the Lower Seymour Conservation Reserve and in the old CPTA trials trails in təmtəmíxʷtən/Belcarra Regional Park.

I also recommend you open a discuss topic on the matter within a local mountain bike forum such as:

https://nsmb.com/forum/forum/the-shore-3/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1025689240817931

I recommend guiding the discussion to include topics like open data, closed data & proprietary lock-in, user safety, emergency service (BCWS, SAR, Fire Rescue, …) considerations, environment & development pressures, land manager positions, and social & health impacts. I also recommend asking users for a defined repeatable method for how to determine whether a trail should show up on a map (that isn’t just asking the legacy builder/maintainer) that could be presented to the Trails Working Group.

Thank you, eerib

Hello _BAR_,

This edit goes against OpenStreetMap's on the ground policy. A details article on deletion of trails is covered in the following wiki page.

osm.wiki/Why_can%27t_I_delete_this_trail%3F

As a result, this changeset has been fully reverted in CS#156416969.

changeset/156416969

Thank you, eerib

This changeset has been fully reverted by CS#155039737. Reason: Vandalism

This changeset has been fully reverted by CS#155039732. Reason: Vandalism

This changeset has been fully reverted by CS# 155039060. Reason: Vandalism

changeset/155039060

This changeset has been fully reverted by CS#155039060. Reason: Vandalism

changeset/155039060

Thank you for the fast action on this.

Good catch on the site update! This one had slipped my radar. Thank you.

Looks like their was an error with regards to ownership of the lands and a recent legal survey corrected that. As a result, RSTBC retired the Recreation Reserve and repealed the backcountry camping designation. Common issue with RSTBC as many of their sites were developed without legal survey.

Hello Glassman,

Information regarding this site was obtained through local knowledge and inference from signage and barriers in the area, and not by access to the Archeological Branch's restricted access database.

Further, the site and other archeological details in this area are mentioned in the following two publicly accessible documents:

- Garden Bay Provincial Park Management Plan (1992)

https://nrs.objectstore.gov.bc.ca/kuwyyf/garden_bay_marine_pa_mp_19921120_de77caa0ec.pdf

- A New Style of Glass Bead from Garden Bay, British Columbia (DOI:10.13140/RG.2.2.23531.03360)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313887703_A_New_Style_of_Glass_Bead_from_Garden_Bay_British_Columbia

I can understand that having the archeological sites in the database can result in desecration of the sites.

On the flip side, I can also see users having a greater respect of the area due to a greater understanding of the historical significance of the area.

There is also a concern that the secrecy in archeological sites is resulting in secrecy in land use and management decisions.

I could not find a formal policy about archeological sites on the OpenStreetMap wiki, other than a short informal discouraging sentence. Perhaps changing the "name=DjSa-3" to "ref:borden=DjSa-3" and removing the "historic=archaeological_site" tag would help. The combination of these two changes should preserve the data within the database but remove the sites from consumer renderers. I will leave it with the DWG to determine what steps should be taken.

Thank you, eerib

Hello Razzle4,

Welcome to OpenStreetMap! Thank you for this edit, it looks great!

You may be interested in this Chrome/Firefox extension which makes it easy to add the Strava Heatmap as a background for the editor. This can make it very easy to add and align mountain bike trails.

https://github.com/zekefarwell/josm-strava-heatmap?tab=readme-ov-file

Thank you again!

Cheers, eerib

Also cleaned up areas near private property but referencing Land Title's ParcelMap to properly tag areas.