As discussed, I have now set "empty" or "yes" on the majority (95%+) of all nodes tagged with TIPLOC in OSM to railway=site.

If you have any further questions on this, please let me know. Thanks,

G

Likewise, thank you for your clear explanation and agree that these should be tagged in the way you describe. My only concern is that based on last night's OSM data there are 546 places with TIPLOC tags, of which 360 have the tag "railway" and of those are marked as "site". Although, this is a little unfair as TIPLOCs are also associated with stations (128), junctions (70) or yards (10).

I'm happy to fix the TIPLOCs I created but think there does need to be a clean up.

Having looked at the link, there are also some corner cases here, for example, if the TIPLOC is also the site of a disused railway station, would that have two tags disused:railway=station, railway=site?

I'll have look during the week and would welcome your thoughts on the other couple-of-hundred TIPLOCs that may need fixing. Noting that there are about 6568 TIPLOCs in the, and that I only tried to map the ones that are missing from other systems...

Anyway, thanks for your help with this and I'll let you know when I'm done.

G

Apologies for the delay in responding. I've had a few things on at work.

Anyway, CARD328 is the approximate location of a planned train service activity according to the current long-term Network Rail timetable[*]. The name "Cardiff Signal 232" is misleading but is also taken from the timetable data,.

An example what I mean here would be 18:27 Sunday CrossCountry train which leaves platform 3 at 18:27, moves up to TIPLOC CARD328 at 18:29, the driver changes ends, sets off again back towards the station at 18:36 arriving at Platform 2 at 18:38.

My thought is the reference will be to the signal used to control this activity west of platforms 2/3.

Does that make sense? If not, please let me know.

Thanks,

G

[*] it was the long-term plan but with the emergency COVID19 timetable this may or may not still happen...

...or alternatively add the tag to node/5723419714 as the TIPLOC is specifically for XR services

Hi,

Thinking about it, it would probably be best to move this to node/5871218017. The timing point is associated with train-service activity at a station. This could be stop or pass, the time table quotes arrival, departure or pass times but not at the level of platform at this can change up to moments before the train-service arrives.

Does that work?

Cheers,

G

PS: If it works for you, made this a "railway:stop" as the is probably a more accurate description of its purpose of the TIPLOC tag rather than "railway:yes"

Hi,

The key tag here, rather than railway, was the ref:tiploc which the TIming Point LOCation used in the national rail timetable planning which is to do with the location of the track/platform rather than the station. For example, you will have a TIPLOC for a railway junction as well as a station.

I'm happy to call it something else but as my intent was more around mapping train-services I would argue it was kind of where it should be.

Happy to be persuaded otherwise though.

Thanks,

G

Actually, looking at this I think you are right and that the GB Rail Freight sidings here are round the back of the Aldi in Coalville, just off Thornborough road.

If you are OK with this I would propose moving the TIPLOC location to node/703978327 and apologies for my error.

My bad,

W

Hi Phil.
I went into railway jargon as a TIPLOC is a calling or activity point in the Network Rail published timetable.
In the current (well, pre-COVID) publish rail timetable there are 332 rail-freight services that call or pass through Mantle Lane TC operated by GB Rail Freight.

They claim to start at Bardon Hill GB Rail Freight siding, then 6-8 minutes later through "Mantle Lane" and then on to 4 minutes Bardon Hill, and Bagworth Jn a few minutes after that...and then on to locations such as Harlow Hill, Tinsley Yard and Radlett Lafarge.
I then set an approximate location of Mantle Lane based on the journey time between the GB Rail Freight siding at Bardon Hill (08:00 minutes), the GB Rail Freight sidings called "Mantle Lane GB Rail Freight" and the journey to actual Bardon Hill junction 03:30 minutes later.
I get that it isn't very accurate but is approximate two-thirds of the between the two known points on a railway line. I would argue isn't unverifiable but simply a best guess. As I use this point when trying to plot freight movements across the UK It would be better if I could have a fuzzy point somewhere near here but OSM doesn't allow that.

I would welcome your thoughts on this.

Cheers W

Apologies for the delay. I've been a bit busy at work with all of this stuff going on.
I may have got the exact location wrong but the national rail timetable does have connecting services running through or near here.
I'll pull together a report with all of the services in the current timetable that call at this TIPLOC and let you know.
Cheers, G

Hi Phil, it was a best guess based on the timetable. I was trying to plot freight movements and this seemed to be the approximate location of Mantle Lane based on other calling points and the running time.

If you know where the Mantle Lance TC GBRF is then please feel free to move this.

On the other hand if you want to see other TIPLOCs and timings for the associated paths I can dig those out too.

Cheers,

Will

For example, there is a train service run by Govia Thameslink Railway (Thameslink) that departs every Sunday at 09:01 between 09 December 2019 and 11 May 2020 from this location, terminating at Luton Bus Station

This is not historic data. The data is taken from the timetable published 4 February 2020. If you want, I can check in the timetable from today.

This is because there a train service that runs to this location which may come in the shape of a bus. It is tagged with a CRS in the national railway timetable and National Public Transport Access Node database.

Looking at the timetable it looks like it provides a link for passengers between train stations. To clarify this I will dig out the services that run to this location

Hi,

In this case the CRS tag comes from the Network Rail CIF Open Timetable feed, which in the joy of 80 character database feeds says:
TIDUNT 00153607LDUNSTABLE 00000 0XAD
If you break this down into something more readable it is:
{"ID": "TI", "TIPLOC": "DUNT", "Capitals_Identification": "00", "Nalco": "153607", "NLC_check_character": "L", "TPS_Description": "DUNSTABLE", "Stanox": "00000", "PO_MCP": " 0", "CRS": "XAD"}
It is also in the National Public Transport Access Node database.

Hi,

This is potentially not a Network Rail but rather a who-ever-runs-the-bus-service on the bus-way.

Given this, there were 121,786 bus service events out of the 9,641,220 movements events in the Network Rail timetable 04/02/2020, of which 776 were for the this location.

(The timetable has all sorts of stuff including bus, tram, metro and even ferry details).

Any more questions with this, please let me know.

That escalated quickly. I would ask you to explain how this breaks your or anyone else usecase? And, if you please would you document your alternative to an implementable rather level rather "don't use OSM use Geolytix and Overpass with wget" which is unhelpful at the very least. Since this discussion started I have a new usecase with an interactive map overlaying OSM tiles using Leaflet at which point I don't see how Geolytix or overpass would help.
Given the clear irritation with overloading the use of admin_level for a ceremonial county I have added the "ceremonial_county" metatag with a status of "yes" and removed the admin_level. This would work for me but would it resolve the issue to your satisfaction?

Hi, my question is then what is the name of the metadata tag that should be used? The usecase is as follows: Visualize an Office of National Statistics dataset aggregated by postal county at a UK national and regional level using shapefiles derived from OSM data.
In the majority of cases the administrative boundary and the postal county boundary align except for a limited number of cases such as South Yorkshire and is why I added the metadata tag.
I cannot avoid the use of postal counties the ONS publishes economic and census data aggregated at postcode district or county area level. And while this is quite niche, I am trying to use OSM data to move away from the restrictions on Ordnance Survey shapefile. Given this, what the right thing to do here?
G

Hi,

Apologies for not getting back sooner but I missed the update mail and was doing some stuff on timing-points on the rail network. The reason why I added an admin_level to South Yorkshire is that I was doing some postcode and place-name visualization. This then ends up with an interesting question inasmuch as, although for political administration South Yorkshire only exists as ceremonial boundary. However, when trying to link to general postal areas, the Post Office maintains a concept of "South Yorkshire" as a way of organising postcodes. I'm not sure what to do to fix this however as I would be loath to create a new tag of "Postal Administrative Area" to cover this. I'd welcome your thoughts though. G