Changeset: 39554848
(no comment)
Closed by docschenk
Tags
build | 2.4-21-g233799c |
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created_by | Potlatch 2 |
version | 2.4 |
Discussion
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Comment from Hjart
Before you get too busy with this, be aware that in the interest of keeping things fairly simple and manageable I will most likely remove any separate cycleways here.
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Comment from docschenk
I don't think that this is the right way to talk with each other.
Looking at Sönderjylland I found a lot of mistakes at one road with cycleways on both sides: partly marked with separate cycleways, partly just with a tag "cycleway=track", then cycleways completely missing, although they are there. You should be glad, that someone else is correcting the South-Denmark-map.
I don't delete anything, so no information will be destroyed.
But for me as a biker it is essential to get the Information "cycleway=track" not only in the cyclemap but also in every "normal" map. And that does't work if the cycleways are not marked as separate ways.
If you don't stop destroying my work I will have to find a Danish "OSM arbitration board" to stop you! -
Comment from Hjart
I tried being diplomatic with you for quite some time, but since you didn't appear to really listen, I decided to stop that crap.
I agree that many cycleways in the eastern part of Sønderjylland are quite inconsequently mapped and have been for years. Initially (and for a long time actually) I was quite unsure what to do about them, so I just left them there.
Also if you think you need all cycletracks to appear on "normal" maps I think you need to change your tools, not the data.
You are welcome to find your danish arbitration board. Mapping cycleway=track rather than separate ways (unless there is good reason to) is commonly agreed upon among danish mappers and we expect you as a foreigner to respect danish custom.
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Comment from docschenk
"I agree that many cycleways in the eastern part of Sønderjylland are quite inconsequently mapped and have been for years. Initially (and for a long time actually) I was quite unsure what to do about them, so I just left them there."
That's the problem!"we expect you as a foreigner to respect danish custom"
I do! But what is Danish custom?
- to map as cycleway=track?
- to map as separate way?
- not to map at all?
to map as cycleway=lane?
I found all of those possibilities.
If I had your email-adress, I could send you some screenshots with all the different ways of mapping that are custom in Denmark!So: What is Danish custom? It's impossible for me to find out. And your word is not enough.
How can a foreigner like me "learn" the Danish customs if there are none?You say: "Also if you think you need all cycletracks to appear on "normal" maps I think you need to change your tools, not the data."
How can I change the tools that are used by other people to create a map, that I want to download? You're talking nonsense! There is no possibility to show cycleways in OSM-maps except to map them as separate ways.
It's a pity, but with mappers like you, I would call them "self-crowned kings" in Germany, improvements will be blocked for many years. A bit more of self-criticism would do you good
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Comment from Hjart
The "Danish custom¨ referred to is described in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Da:Cykelstivejledning (danish language) which I think I've actually referred you to earlier. I am by far the most active mapper in Denmark, but have been busy with other things, so cycleways have in many cases taken a backseat, but we're working towards it.
I do not agree that you necessarily need to be able to see every feature on every map and if you want to see all cycleways, I think you should use the cyclemap or similar and if the tools you use does not, I suggest you try to convince the developers to include that option.
Also I am more than enough self-critical and definitely do not need more of it -
Comment from docschenk
Once again me.
You may be interested in the German site http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_kartieren
You see, our leading OSMers are not that far away from each other.
You will know this: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Da:Cykelstier#Cykelstier_i_Danmark
Three sentences I want to present to you"På trods af sin "tutorial" tilgang er dokumentet her ikke ment som en vejledning i at udarbejde cykelstier i OSM. Det er ment som en udforskning af forskellige situationer, som forhåbentlig kan medvirke til at kvalificere diskussionen ud over stadiet hvor der udelukkende udveksles synspunkter." Seems that even in Denmark the diskussion has not yet found an end.
"Afsluttende bemærkninger" ..."For dem som interesserer sig for at få et visuelt flot kort har tag-metoden den ulempe, at man er afhængig af de programudviklere som udvikler den software der skal "oversætte" fra tags til flotte kort."
As I already said: It's not me that can influence the developers. And even in the OSM cyclemap there is a difference between highway=cycleway and cycleway=track/lane: The cycleways appear already on the 2km scale, the tracks/lanes not before the 1 km scale.And it will be a long way until the developers will have a program that can translate i.e. cycleway=track, distance to road=5m, width:cycleway=2m and so in a good map. Up to that day I will prefer to map separated cycleways as highway=cycleway. I also think that it is very inconsequent to map a footway as separate way but not the cycleway.
"Det er dog værd at huske på et af de vigtigste principper i Openstreetmap, nemlig at det er den individuelle mapper's skøn og lokalkendskab som er en af OSM's stærkeste fordele!"
The last sentence is the most important. You won't find in Germany a mapper who deletes other mappers work without saving the information. So if one mapper maps highway=cycleway it's no problem that the other one maps cycleway=path to the road. Leave both possibilities, one for the "flot kort", and the other for routing programs. And in a few years we will see what the developers have reached an we can decide for the better solution.
It's always worth to look over the borders and to find out how other countries do. The Netherlands are a bicycle nation, too. They don't have a problem with the "tegne-metoden", neither do the other European countries I looked at.
Have a nice week-end!
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