Changeset: 68846102
Making the Ruhrgebied mass transit system more understandable; tagging S-bahn as light rail, tagging Regionalbahn as branch line, tagging Regio Express as branch line, tagging cargo-only lines as industrial lines
Closed by JJJWegdam
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (14760 en) |
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source | https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenRailwayMap/Tagging#Tracks |
Discussion
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Comment from drolbr
Hi,
may you have confused S-Bahn (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Bahn, "stoptrein" in Dutch) and Stadtbahn (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sneltram of https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premetro)?
The lines are all full-scale railways. In NRW they are usually used in mixed mode. There is hardly any track here that has not seen all of regional passenger trains, long distance passenger trains and freight trains over the course of time.Please note also that there is a substantial light rail network here, see
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/HFm
and that mixing stoptreinen into that network rather adds to the confusion.I would kindly ask you to revert the changeset and the other changeset with the same type of changes.
Cheers, Roland
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Comment from JJJWegdam
Good morning,
Thank you for your comment. It allows to discuss this matter more thoroughly, before we decide to revert or continue.
The reason for my changesets is the very high amount of usage=main railways in the Ruhr Area. Feel free to have a look at openrailwaymap.org. I therefore have looked carefully at the transport systems in there and I concluded that we can make it a lot more understandable. Many lines are for regional routes only (usage=branch). I perceive Regio Express and RegionalBahn as suitable for such tagging.
Your commentary is about the S-Bahn however. The reason for the choice of the light_rail tag is that I’ve travelled with S-Bahn’s that are clearly light rail. Take for example Berlin and Hamburg that are both tagged as accordingly. I propose that the Rhein-Ruhr network should receive this tag aswell, because of consistency and to underline the seperate network brand. This is still the case while I acknowledge the S-Bahn tracks as being full-scale railways.
I will wait with further changesets and would appreciate your further opinion.
Kind regards,
Jeroen -
Comment from Nakaner
Hi Jeroen,
may I ask you where you discussed this change? It is common consensus in Germany to discuss systematic tagging changes in advance even if they are not mechanical.
I agree with Roland and would like to add:
Most railway lines are tagged as usage=main because they are operated under the rules for main lines.
usage=industrial is totally wrong, it is used for non-public railway lines which is clearly wrong for Hilden–Düsseldorf-Rath.
railway=light_rail is wrong for railway tracks used by S-Bahn trains because the S-Bahn Rhein/Ruhr is a normal railway system using normal railway vehicles (e.g. Alstom Corodia Continental, Bombardier Talent 1) which are used on RB/RE lines elsewhere. In addition, most of these tracks are used by normal trains as well, e.g. your railway=light_rail track between Düsseldorf-Eller and Düsseldorf-Oberbilk. I did travel with an ICE train over this track.
I started the revert of this changeset and changeset 68839502 and invite you to discuss it with the community. If the consensus changes, this revert can be reverted.
Best regards
Michael
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Comment from Nakaner
Berlin and Hamburg S-Bahn used DC power from a third rail and might be tagged because they sometimes share tracks with freight and other passenger trains as well.
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Comment from Nakaner-repair
This changeset has been reverted fully or in part by changeset 68878035 where the changeset comment is: Revert systematic changes of railway=* and usage=* around Duesseldorf. See discussion of changeset 68846102 for details.
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Comment from edathy
@JJJWegdam: Learn from this and never again destroy railways in Germany!
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Comment from Nakaner
@edathy Please refrain from unhelpful comments like yours.
@others Seems to be a sockpuppet.
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Comment from JJJWegdam
Dear Michael,
Thanks for your views. Due to the amount of different points you mention, I'll answer you in parts.
On the matter of discussion. I didn't discuss this prior to the changeset, on purpose. This because no centrally approved platform is present for such discussions. We may use the country specific mailing list, the openrailwaymap mailing list, the OSM forum, the Talk-DE forum, etc, etc. For this reason, I simply started with a overseeable amount of changes, in order to see if discussions would start. I can discuss here with the people who are involved, so I think the approach works. In the worst case, I was willing to revert my own changes. Therefore I think the strategy is harmless.
On the matter of main/branch usage. The reason for my approach was to tag by real usage, rather than by workrules. It allowed for better visibility of different train services like in this example https://ibb.co/VxK9d60. It would seem inconvenient to me to use the usage tag in such a way, in Germany, but I respect that different countries have different systems for this.
On the matter of usage=industrial: the way you describe that tag matches the service=spur tag. At the openrailwaymap tagging page we may read: <usage = main is meant for> "Lines, that serve only goods transport." and <service = spur is meant for> "Mostly short tracks leading from railway lines to industrial areas.". Private usage is only mentioned at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:usage and not at the ORM tagging page. I would prefer to have a seperate usage tag for freight-only tracks and I think that Industrial is a tag which fulfills that function. Could you perhaps elaborate on your view on this matter?
On the matter of light-rail I settle with coupling the tag to things like the example of the different power source, like you mentioned. The ICE you mentioned was not present at openbusmap.org, so I think that relation might be missing.
In summary: I would advise against the apparent German interpretation of the usage tag and I agree on your views on the light_rail tag.
Best regards,
Jeroen -
Comment from drolbr
Thank you that have kept up the discussion.
There are a couple of specific aspects on railways in Northrhine-Westphalia: First of all, in the years 1960 to 1990 many railway lines have been abandoned. This means that the remaining lines are to a large extent main lines - there is hardly a line with less than three trains per hour. Then, in Germany we tend to have information about the service type on the route relations. It does make only limited sense to copy that incompletely on the tracks themselves. Finally, there is an extensive network of private railways. One popluar is the
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord-S%C3%BCd-Bahn_(Garzweiler)
Another is the port railway around Cologne
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A4fen_und_G%C3%BCterverkehr_K%C3%B6ln
They form relatively straightforward application for usage=industrial.
That said, in local perception it makes perfectly sense to tag the majority of Deutsche Bahn tracks in Northrhine-Westphalia as usage=main.Best regards,
Roland
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