I was apparently mistaken.

After discussing with people here, and outside this discussion, it appears that most of “relevant” people are fine with after-the-fact hiding of insulting messages or insults, with limited/no transparency about what happened and no further consequences for the posters.

Some of the suggestions shared could still be applied though.

Sorry to have taken the community time about this issue.

Thank you for reaching out Frederik. I hope that you won’t get banned for discussing that here.

you are being unnecessarily bellicose. You behave as if it is your intent to somehow provoke moderator action against you, only to then cry “told you so”.

Do you think that mod action would have been taken about the first two unnecessarily hostile comments, had I not reacted ? In regards to the pop-corn discussion on the forum, which was then used to bully a contributor without any mod action, the answer is clear.

Most of what you loudly claim here are half-truths at best. Of the three entries initially hidden, two were more or less juvenile calls for a popcorn emoji (which you frame as “direct insults”)

Bold move to call me a liar and on the next sentence willingly misconstrue what I said. While the pop-corn comments where insulting, they were not insults. I didn’t want to share it for obvious reasons, but the insult was “alphabet people playing victim”, and you know that was what I was talking about.

You seem to think that this is some kind of game about trying to find out just which buttons one must push to provoke what reaction

while your entry, the third, contained explicit language that would be beeped over on television, and you added a sentence to the effect “now let’s see how moderation deals with this”.

The first two comments were unmoderated, just like in the other bullying case I’m sure you’re familiar about. I acted, admittedly forced the hand of mods, but they were removed. Both hostile posters then posted more level-headed responses. Don’t you think that’s a good outcome ?

What you’re doing here is exactly what my DWG colleague has called it: performative diary commenting.

There was out-of-line behavior (by your and Andy’s standard), and no mod action. I called them out, posts were hidden without any consequence for their posters (no blocks, no private message AFAIK). Being moderator, I’m sure you have enough empathy to understand like me what receiving by email such messages does. Call that performative to your leisure.

so what happened is, you logged in, saw the message, and were able to continue editing.

somehow fail to reach the recipient

Please stop calling contributors liars when you know don’t (won’t ?) know what happened. I’m sure you know of osm.org works, but just in case : I’m a regular contributor, so I’m already logged into OSM (are you not ?). Most of my editing workflow does not use the OSM.org website. JOSM was spewing errors, which could have been related to IPv6 issues (known previous problem of JOSM). Also, there were recent authentication changes in the OSM API. So I investigated for a bit, and found no explanation. On OSM.org, there are no mentions of a current block. It’s only shown when going into one’s profile page, so it took a bit of time for me to find out.

If Andy did not use the block tool as a personal messaging tool, I would have seen it right away, on the homepage, in my editor, and by email.

Please explain who, why and where people were forbidden to comment on this this issue on the diary ? Andy made an unapplicable suggestion, for reasons already explained, so I ignored it. If think that is a bannable offense, please share this idea on discourse to move forward.

then take the matter to the forum and have a calm discussion there about whether or not calls for popcorn should be punishable by what under which circumstances

I already answered on why this would not be effective. And looks it’s already decided by the DWG :

• Trolls being hostile in response to a contributor being worried about “vulnerable groups” being imprisonned if they were to go to an OSMF-sponsored event should have their message hidden. They should not be blocked.

• People calling out such comments, and trying to prevent future hostile behaviour like this, should have their comment removed

• People questioning mod actions should be banned temporarily.

if you are honestly interested in moving OSM forward [prescriptive language about where I am allowed to talk and on what subject]

You’re not interested in finding solutions

I though most of those were clear enough, but here you go :

• Use (private) messages when blocks are unwarranted.

• Make clear rules about what is allowed to be discussed in diaries

• Use prescriptive language, not light suggestions, when you want to order someone to do something.

• Act unprompted on shitty behavior (by your own standard !). When hostile comments are made, don’t just hide them after they were sent by email to subscribers, with no consequence.

• Avoid removing posts when they are not illegal or do major disruptions, to allow the community to spot wide-spread issues and discuss it

• Just like blocks, implement a comment removal log for the same reason as above.

“a team of bullies being sent to my house …” […] performative diary commenting […] Most of what you loudly claim here are half-truths at best […]

If you write a message that is offensive enough to believe that you might be blocked for it, just sleep over it and re-word it with a calm mind

I think you should take your own advice Frederik, and show more respect to your fellow contributors.

I was banned temporarily from contributing to OSM because I pointed out that moderation wasn’t up to the task regarding this issue by user “SomeoneElse”.

They also tried to intimidate me further by threatening me of unspecified further action if I point out more dysfunctions in an effective manner.

They instead ask that I raise a discussion elsewhere, without being able to point to the facts as they are being swept under the rug, as there are no public log of those messages after they are hidden. The discussion would be of course ineffective. However here in the comments, as the people concerned received evidenced of the messages via email, collecting support is possible.

Expect this dissenting message to be hidden too, for the same reason : avoiding responsibility.

AFAIK blocks have only been dealt to me, who pointed out moderation dysfunction, and not to the people dealing insults here. You can verify that here, and may ask me which users have had their message hidden if you were not subscribed yet.

I’m really appalled about the response here. How could you consider that people directly insulting others may continue without any pushback (no blocks), and people pointing out the issue be blocked ? I hope the rest of the moderating team will be more reasonable, and curb this unbelievable behavior.

For the record, another mapper (not just a spam account) directly insulted OP (and a lot of people), but the message got hidden by the mods. Once again, it still was sent by email to the OP, and anyone subscribed here.

Nice, thanks !

@Friendly_Ghost Thank you for making a more respectful answer.

@SomeoneElse I’m sure you understand that hiding those messages prevent the community from acting on such problems if they are widespread. Let’s hope they are not. In the meantime, looks like what happened here led to a positive outcome.

@SomeoneElse, they didn’t just “not add any value”, they were openly hostile. They were not just spam, or input errors.

You even deleted OP’s comment, of his own diary. If OP’s input has no value in your eyes, why not delete the whole diary then ?

Removing them after the harm is done is not enough in my opinion. Either you consider them fine enough, and leave them up to be discussed, or you should act towards avoiding those problems altogether.

I also wonder if you would have acted had I not posted my comment calling them out and forcing you into acting. Similar issues happened on the Discourse, with no mod actions.

Okay, mods deleted the derogatory comments, and comments calling them out.

I’m not sure whether sweeping the dirt under the rug will solve the issue. I think more direct input should be shared about this behavior if you don’t want it to spawn later.

That would be really nice, but I feel quite hard to implement.

Wow, at last ! API 0.6 was showing its limits, happy to see it become web-scale.

Hello Robhubi, I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis.

Hi, thank you for the analysis and report !

you are mistaking the forest for the trees

It is not because I have omitted this POV that I missed it.

I adress it quite directly.

If you feel an user is unreasonable in face of such messages, why throw oil on the fire ? Are you fishing for an overreaction ? Because slice0 is right on that count; that’s harassment.

This has been an issue for months now and slice0 is just looking for any way possible to cause division within the community at this point

That is your point of view, that is shared surely by some others. It doesn’t make it right to be inflammatory, and it helps absolutely nothing. The point of all sides have been made. Be the bigger person. Don’t flame.

I’m quite disappointed by your messages Richard and CactiStaccingCrane.

Do you think it’s a good idea to pile up on someone that feel hurt by this ? Even I’d you think that slice0 has no reason to feel this way, is it how you want to interact with fellow mappers ?

Thanks for supporting such a wonderful tool. I use it almost every day !

Nice work and writeup, thank you !

I don’t know about “we”, but “you” aren’t going to be doing anything until you have changed your attitude towards the rest of the OSM community.

Please remember the human behind each mapper. Sure, their position is at odds most of the time, but they are a motivated person contributing to the project.

I really don’t like the position you take by talking like that. You (SomeoneElse) sure give a lot to the project, but that doesn’t give you absolute moral superiority to the rest of the peasants here. You have a lot of experience, sure, and will be right most of the time, but you don’t speak for everyone here. No one can. Someone(Else :p) with “power” must understand that surely ?

Nice tool, thank you !

Bonjour,

Je ne vois pas les adresses dans le cadastre et dans BANO, as-tu une idée de comment Google Maps a été mis à jour ?

Nice writeup, thanks !