Just about I think! I read the article about the opening on KSL and added it.

Hi VLD075,

Thanks for reaching out! My only justification at the time for making the change from town to city was the latest population figures provided by the Census Bureau. As I've come to learn, the place classification seems to be a lot more nuanced that I gave it credit for. There is an ongoing discussion about looking at place classifications across Nevada and other areas of the United States on Slack. Feel free to change it back to place=town. I think that's more fitting given our discussion and the resources provided.

Thanks again for reaching out. Have a great day!

`place` classification. I put considerable emphasis on the OSM wiki definition which he quotes in his message. I'll quote directly from his words, "the only one on the list that might possibly be comparable to Reno/Sparks, Carson, and Las Vegas metro is Elko" and I want to emphasize where I make the case for my decision making, "that is only on account of it being the only "full service" town for hundreds of miles in the remote high desert region".

I've personally never seen or heard anything about `place` classification being based on local prominence. There may be some editors in some states who see it that way and in my opinion, it's because they believe the slippy map needs to be geographically balanced by showing a well rounded set of features at the different zoom levels. I personally don't subscribe to that style of mapping. I think it's disingenuous.

To your point (and Bradley's) about the amenities of a "city" and why I don't believe that is a good metric to justify Elko as a "city is because everything that you listed above is also found in my hometown of Winnemucca. We have a college campus, K-12 schools, a hospital, a proper city center, shopping plazas, amenities like museums, community centers, parks, and fairgrounds, and ongoing development. The only difference between Winnemucca and Elko is about 10,000 people, a Wendy's, and Home Depot (there's obviously more but those are the big ones ). By that criteria, Winnemucca should be a city too but it's not because as Bradley put it, "a town should be relatively "full service" - you could potentially purchase a complete range of consumer goods, service most any equipment you own, receive mostly comprehensive healthcare in town; often there's a small or satellite higher education campus." Personally, this fits Elko really well, it fits Winnemucca, it fits Fallon well, Ely and Tonopah are stretches in my opinion but they can be either/or.

My point is I don't disagree with your decision here but I don't completely agree either. I hope I've offered clarity into my thought process but if you would like the tagging schema to remain place=city for Elko, I won't undo that. Thanks again for reaching out! :)

I appreciate your comment and feedback. Please know that I did not come in and make this change without having put considerable thought into it first.

I saw (and prepared a comment that I never sent) on your original discussion on slack. Bradley (btwhite 92) succinctly explained the way that I approach the `place

Hi flaviusm_telenav,

I appreciate the addition of service roads in Winnemucca. I would ask that future edits be verified by ground survey or other methods where possible (i.e. Mapillary or other open source product). Many of the service roads you added are impossible due to concrete walls or impossible because development has occurred in what would appear to be an open lot. The most recent imagery for the area is NAIP dated late 2018.

Thanks,
TheConductor
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Published using OSMCha: https://osmcha.org/changesets/121147761

Yep, I’m aware of these ways. Please delete. Thanks.

I’ll just add that it would be preferable if you avoided tweaking classification in Nevada until we can come to consensus guidelines. There will be a draft of Nevada guidelines coming out soon. Thanks!

I think you’re failing to understand the point here which is that your classification changes that you made do NOT make sense based on how the city is set up. If we were to move forward with the class changes you made to the residential roads, you would be routing people through neighborhoods (creating the zig-zag effect that you’re warning me about) when there are several very clear through routes that provide access from central business district to surrounding neighborhoods and schools.

I will also be very clear that there is no local bias here. I am happy to have others provide quality edits however I will not stand idly by and let others with NO local knowledge of the area make edits that do not make sense. Local knowledge and survey data is prioritized over out-of-state editor knowledge. Survey is the highest quality data we can contribute to OSM. Also, just because you haven’t heard of someone doing something doesn’t mean it isn’t an acceptable form of “local knowledge.” You would be wise to focus your efforts in areas where there isn’t an active editor base. I’d be happy to provide you with a list of places that do not currently have active editors contributing that could use some OSM TLC.

Traffic volume is only one of the metrics that I use to determine what the final classification should be. Another is the local element that gives me the unique perspective on travel habits, local priority, and how people get from point A to point B. I also factor in regional importance as well as local importance as well as what local and state authorities have determined on the subject. I value their input above anything else because they are the ultimate authority on this.

If you were local to the area, you would understand that majority (80%+ of traffic) that is making the change between I-80 to US 95 or vice versa is utilizing Exit 176. We know this because of local traffic studies that have been conducted. As I pointed out before, just because a road that connects two larger roads appear to merit a higher classification does not always mean that it should. The wiki classifies a primary road as “some state roads are [also] primary, the criterion being either they connect large towns/cities, or being a major road in an urban area. “The definition of secondary road is as follows “A highway which is not part of a major route, but nevertheless forming a link in the national route network.” This definition (Secondary) is a far better fit than primary because it is not a major route (contrary to what it might look like on paper) but it does form a link between two larger routes. I stand by my decision to maintain this as secondary. I am willing to discuss this matter in the group that works with me on changes to the area. We have a meeting soon and I will bring this up. I would also like to point out that I do not make comparisons between towns because each is different and each has different features that makes each unique.

I understand your intentions behind wanting to upgrade the roads that connect the high school, middle school, and college but if you had spent any time in Winnemucca, you would understand that these roads maintain a strict 25 mph speed limit, contain no center turn lane, and several are not even striped. In this case, Highland Drive is the primary connection between the neighborhoods to the north and business district to the south. When Great Basin Avenue get punched through to Water Canyon Road someday, there is a good case to upgrade it to tertiary. For now, the best that I can see Great Basin Road being is an unclassified road. Until then, I stand by my decision to maintain these as residential, local access roads.

I spent 25 years of my life in Winnemucca. It’s home for me and it’s the place I know the best (and also where I edit the most). My understanding is that your experience is primarily with Las Vegas until you moved to Virginia (based on your bio). I try to stick only to places I’ve visited or have lived (in this case, Winnemucca and SLC). I would kindly ask that you consult local editors (in this case myself) before making such large scale changes. Just like btwhite92 (whom I’m friendly with) is the guy for Reno, I’m the guy for Winnemucca. I am confident that those using OSM to navigate will achieve above satisfactory results based on the current classification schema. Thanks!

Hello,

I appreciate your thoughts but I will be reverting your changes. The roads that you have re-tagged do not classify as tertiary roads. They are uniquely residential roads contrary to what cartographic connectivity might show.

I may not have unique authority to speak to road classifications in other locality's but this is home base for me and I have spent years refining the road classifications in this area in consultation with the local government and state highway folks and we are very confident in our classification or arterials, minor arterials, collectors, and local collectors.

I will also point that East Winnemucca Blvd does not even begin to approach traffic volumes to be classified as primary. We will be keeping that as secondary regardless of what cartographic best fit connectivity may show. Like I said, we are very confident in our classification schema.

Hi,

Thanks you for the reminder. I'm aware that it deletes the history. It's an old habit from a job I had working in OSM in other countries.

Best,
TheConductor

I appreciate your thoughts on this issue. We've discussed this topic several times before in other parts of the county and I acknowledge that you have taken time to learn and to make well meaning edits in OpenStreetMap. I'd also like to acknowledge that I am aware that the "trunk" classification is not exclusively reserved for expressways. I also understand your reasons for wanting to classify Redwood Road as "trunk" to connect what looks like two disconnected segments.

From a purely cartographic perspective, you are absolutely correct that Redwood Road serves as a corridor that connects two segments but the difference here is that I live here and understand the general travel patterns of commuters. I also have a unique perspective because I live in Salt Lake County and have someone in my family that commutes each day to Saratoga Springs in Utah County. Interstate 15 is our major North-South corridor that 95%+ of those people who live in Salt Lake County but work in Utah County use to get to Saratoga Springs/Eagle Mountain. The same is true of people who live Saratoga Springs/Eagle Mountain and work in Salt Lake County. The vast majority of commuters use MVC at 2100 North to access Interstate 15 to then go north to places of work in Salt Lake County. The people who work in Lehi, Orem, or Provo also use 2100 North or Pioneer Crossing to access Interstate 15 to then go north or south to access final destinations and/or places of work. While Redwood Road looks like a higher speed road that connects two expressways, the reality is that speed limit is 45 MPH and it only serves as an access point to the neighborhoods and businesses that are directly adjacent to it. Interstate 15 is the significantly quicker option when it comes to North-South commuting.

I hope this explanation helped explain my reasoning for reverting the classification to "primary".

No worries, I've learned a lot of these things via trial and error and working off what I've seen other people do and what the wiki recommends.

Thanks! I didn't know that.

I realize that my changeset comment is slightly misleading. I'll be more specific in the future.

No worries, I am aware of that. If you inspect the tagging schema closer, you will see that the rail spur is split with the existing rail infrastructure (that is not in use) is tagged railway=disused and the part of the spur (that appears in OSM but has been completely removed in real life) to tie into existing UTA right-of-way is tagged as railway=abandoned which does not render in OSM.

The way that I tagged it is just a way to preserve data that is historic in nature even though it doesn't actually exist in real life.

Bus-only lanes are usually tagged as highway=service with an access=no tag and bus=designated tag. Oneway=yes tags are included when the opposing bus lanes are segregated (like sections of the UVX on 700 North and University Ave). There are additional tags that can be found on the OSM Wiki but to the best of my knowledge, those tags are the standard scheme for designated bus lanes.

A 45 degree elbow would make a lot more sense now that I think about it. I'm hoping to have access to aerial photography that my organization had flown in September. That will hopefully shed some light on the final alignment from the sky.

Very neat that you work for UTA. I also work for the State of Utah (not UGRC, although I have some friends there). We don't rely on OSM as much as we do ArcGIS Pro and other Esri resources so a lot of what I do is as a hobby. Like Mvexel, I've been focused on making fixes to the TRAX relations as well as better aligning the UVX route through Provo-Orem. I'm also interested in future TRAX projects, particularly where the thought is to expand the network next!

Thanks guys! Happy to help. It is just an approximation based on my latest trip to the airport. Unfortunately, the aerial isn't up-to-date just yet. Hopefully soon (fingers crossed). Feel free to make improvements/adjustments as imagery becomes available or you have the chance to survey. I just took my best guess since it is operational now.

Changeset posted with incorrect comment. Original comment was, "Added proposed alignment of Maine DOT I 395-Route 9 Connector as construction. Project is going out to bid with construction to begin shortly."
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Published using OSMCha: https://osmcha.org/changesets/111462158