Dzertanoj has commented on the following diary entries

Post When Comment
Will the DWG block us all one day? 26 days ago

This is the case where presenting any kind of global statistics as an argument is fundamentally fallacious, regardless of cumulative or not, what scale was used for a chart and so on.

It is fallacious because there is no evidence that increasing number is a result of a tendency on the DWG side. There is no "too many" or "too few" - there are multiple individual cases that lead to as many blocks as needed (excluding the undiscovered ones). Although, there might be some local clusters of reasons why blocks have been issued. Such as spam, Pokemon Go vandalism (something totally new, isn't it?), use of illegal sources to improve the data for the commercial purpose, edits war over disputed territories. If there is an increase of vandalism related to any third-party services, it is actually an indirect proof that the number of data users grows. (Yes, it happens. No, I don't know how many of these cases led to a block or has been found.)

So, I suggest abstaining from any negative assumptions and presenting it as a false dichotomy of "getting more users" versus "blocking more users". If it is necessary to block someone to maintain data integrity and quality as well as project reputation - it's totally fine. By the way, data quality degradation caused by systematic vandalism is among the reasons why loyal users might become discouraged and lose their motivation.

If you are aware of any case when a user has been blocked without any significant reason - let everybody know about it. If you think that the practice of blocking users is not transparent enough - let everybody know about your concern. But saying something as vague as "oh, maybe it's too much", even in a context of growing number of blocks per unit of time, is, again, fallacious and counter-productive.

I really hope that there is no post-modernist ideology involved here, such as "any user, even one who has effectively and systematically demonstrated uncooperative and even hostile behavior together with harmful actions, can be transformed into a valuable community member". But if there is something like that behind this diary entry, I suggest presenting an accurate evidence of such possibility. Even several anecdotes could be sufficient since it makes no sense to expect a scientifically correct proof.

OSM Needs Gateopeners too about 1 month ago

Even being positive, labels are still labels, after all.

While some people think that it's about personal emotions, it is not. If anything in the original post deserves a reaction in a form of discussing fundamental features of OSM, this reaction should be based on a constructive analysis. Analysis starting from defining the goals. Because, apparently, different groups of people within OSM project have very different ones. Otherwise, it always comes to a point where some people who understand how important structural integrity of data architecture is, will always come to a conflict situation with those who consider "having fun" or "keeping growth constant" the most important features of the project. And it is pretty obvious that those who maintain that structural integrity naturally have only one effective instrument against the hijacking - "keys" for those "gates". While those who don't understand that without this structural integrity OSM will degrade into Wikimapia or some other meaningless project that allows "having fun" with no limits. So they want to hijack the system of push boundaries in their personal favor (allow more low-quality imports, random tagging etc.), using all available tools, including whining, blaming, appeal to emotions (specifically - to fear), demagoguery.

To give a perfect example, I can tell the story that involves Zverik, since he started this discussion originally. His personal view on quality is more or less accurately expressed by the formula "let's add something and then - let others improve it". This principle is behind his vision of contribution mechanisms, behind some imports he made (like, minor water streams in Moscow). And it either automatically implies that "gatekeepers" he despises should actually drop everything they do and start improving the quality of information added as a part of "having fun", or that it doesn't really have to be improved at all. So, while quality is a key advantage of the OSM data (it might be quite far from perfect but it's the best available for public, after all), gatekeepers do their job just great.

Not Yours, OpenStreetMap about 1 month ago

All I can say is that when criticism is taken personally or perceived as an attack, it is the most prominent sign of major issues with a project.

There is no surprise in the fact that once something is actually written as a passive-aggressive verbal attack ("politely" avoiding specific names, but making it obvious while using some people's names to support something they haven't actually ever supported), it will be taken personally by those who you've indirectly mentioned. And it has nothing to do with any other problems even if there are plenty of them.

The negativist message is even more clear if you know which connotations some of the words used in this post have in Russian. "Gatekeeper" in Russian is an insulting term that means "(an old and retarded, grumpy) person who does nothing useful but prevents others from doing something (new) or exercising their freedom". This meaning is as common as the literal one. So, please, those who don't speak Russian, keep this in mind when interpreting Zverik's words. He personally used this term quite a lot in exactly that meaning I've described above.

So, yes, this is not a systemic issue described above, it's nothing but venting a personal frustration in a form of hypocritically blaming others.

Not Yours, OpenStreetMap about 1 month ago


Not Yours, OpenStreetMap about 1 month ago

Oh, look who makes accusations of abuse of power and over-restrictive actions. One who took criticism of a project he is related to (that actually uses OSM data) as a personal insult (like he often does) and declared a vendetta against certain individuals, then - took over the main channel of communication of the whole community and, obviously, feels bored now.

Why exactly do you need more anarchy, to be able to carry out your personal ideas, like (just a hypothetical example) more imports of crappy Russian government data to make Maps.ME look better and brag about it? Leave rhetorics aside, start talking at least about things you actually want to do and why, instead of shaming and blaming others.

Секретные карты и ответственность... 3 months ago

Жуткий бред

Парагельмен 857м.Широта 44.62141 Долгота 34.33791 3 months ago

Думать тут не о чем. Если вас волнует вопрос точности, то приведите все координаты к одному виду, посчитайте разницу и переведите ее в метры. Если вы хотите уточнить координаты и высоту какой-то точки, вооружайтесь приемником, отличным от бытового или, прости господи, смартфона. Не думаю, что доступ к таковому у вас есть. Так что что остается? Правильно - не забивать себе голову вещами, которые вы не можете решить.

Парагельмен 857м.Широта 44.62141 Долгота 34.33791 3 months ago

Вы про координаты? Не имею понятия - меня этот конкретный вопрос не волнует, он вас волнует. Переведите - узнаете.

Но без приведения координат к одному виду (градусы и десятичные доли градусов, например) сравнивать их столь же бессмысленно, как бессмысленно удивляться тому, что ваш рост в сантиметрах и дюймах выражается разными цифрами, например.

Вы понимаете разницу между записью координат в градусах, минутах и секундах с одной стороны, и градусах, минутах и десятичных долях минут - с другой?

Парагельмен 857м.Широта 44.62141 Долгота 34.33791 3 months ago

Чем вы собираетесь разбираться, GPS-приемником геодезического класса? А ничего, что вы координаты в трех разных форматах (DD.DDDD, DD MM SS.SS, DD MM.MMM) зачем-то привели, хотя их можно было бы и пересчитать?

OSM Awards as a thermometer on diversity in the mapping community 3 months ago

The whole topic sounds unclear to me.

Does OSM project itself have any obstacles for women to join and participate actively once they want to do that? Personally, I'm not aware of anything like that. Correct me if I'm wrong. However, if I'm right about this fact, any gender disproportion is a result of a personal choice simply because OSM is a volunteering project. Indeed, this choice is not totally "free" - it is always influenced by factors such as education, habits, personal preference, cultural environment.

It means that if someone wants to change gender (or any other, like age, nationality, etc) proportion in a project that is already gender-neutral by design, one has to work with these external (relatively to the project itself) factors mentioned above. Tweaking a project means changing it to make it fit some personal views and some political/social agenda. That doesn't seem like something relevant to the declared fundamental goals of the OSM project. If it actually is relevant, could anyone point to that statement?

Don't get me wrong - I'm totally fine with anyone's personal views and activism while it stays personal and doesn't force anyone to support it. Everyone has a right to stay neutral towards anything (this is a part of a free choice).

Some problems of Russian forum 5 months ago

Oh, and speaking of collusion. Since Russian forum moderators are not obligated to have a consensus on every question or decision, it doesn't really matter if they all can or can not collude - one moderator will never cancel another moderator's ban or something. While Zverik's bandwagon still has the majority even if they would need that.

Some problems of Russian forum 5 months ago

And those who really like to point fingers at people's lack of merits (like, amount of edits), please, remember:

  • Aren't that you, who repeat the same words about "being kind to novices" all the time when it suits your point better?

  • Did you just forget that OSM is not a meritocracy, where someone's credibility, significance or even right to express a reasonable opinion depend directly on a size of genitalia (amount of edits or lines of OSM-related code, etc.)?

Just stop being so hypocrite and double-faced.

Some problems of Russian forum 5 months ago

Let me remind everybody who got distracted by the long discussion.

  • Conflict of interests exists by default when a person is in the positions where one of these might affect his judgment and actions in the other position. So, it is not even necessary to prove anything - this is a fact that everyone here is aware of. In the real world, this would be enough to even deny a candidate's application.

  • Another moderator is defunct completely (unless somebody starts talking about him), being a "placeholder" or an accomplice in a simple collusion.

These two reasons are quite significant, as well as their initial vendetta-style program. While the personal conflict mentioned above by calmness is just a particular resulting case that illustrates it.

Some problems of Russian forum 5 months ago

Warin61, a conflict of interests is always a matter of personal features. So, pointing at the relevant ones based on repeating actions is totally valid. But this is just one part of a problem.

This rule has been broken by some of the current moderators in the first place - the part of their election "program" was to get rid of the certain people they don't like for personal reasons (mostly because their actions were openly criticized, sometimes - in a straightforward manner) while the rest of their programs was vague and unclear. It makes it look just like a personal vendetta, nothing more. Should people, who clearly declare their personal "targets" ever be in charge of keeping a civil discussion?

By the way, the whole situation with is well-known as a one-sided game, so it doesn't make any sense to demand using Google Play feedback, GitHub issue tracker or any other service as a "proper" channel of communication - developers just ignore these channels and that has been clearly declared. Therefore, OSM forum as a channel and Zverik as an active member of team (exactly how he positioned himself in a community) inevitably became a channel and a target of all that reasonable frustration people started accumulating. So, even totally factual complaints, piling up in a huge heap with everything else, eventually started being disregarded and actively rejected. However, ignoring criticism is one thing, but pursuing a moderator's position to be able to sweep criticism under the carpet and to punish for the most prominent (not just rude, but detailed and/or pointing at long-lasting fundamental or especially harmful issues) acts of criticism is a totally different thing.

Some problems of Russian forum 5 months ago

+1. - Conflict of interests exists regardless of anything else, especially - of a whistleblower's personality. - A conflict between moderators is unacceptable, especially in the passive-aggressive form. - Defunct "placeholder" moderator's position should be filled with a person who has time/will to fulfill his duty.

This topic should be discussed anywhere else but in Russian OSM forum since there, it is a clear violation of self-proclaimed rules.

Any arguments based an attempt to discredit a person using assumptions and non-related facts are irrelevant and only serve as an indirect proof that "Zverik's bandwagon" does actually exist.

Non-English keywords in English iD interface. 5 months ago

"Helping" means "doing useful, productive things", not "doing something".

Non-English keywords in English iD interface. 5 months ago

@bhousel, my logic that I've explained above is quite opposite: neither altar nor garbhargriha should be among the keywords, altar - because it's not a synonym for a temple, church or cathedral, garbhargriha - for the same reason and because it's not an English word anyway. That's what happens when people who have no idea about foreign culture/language and real needs of foreign people start "helping" foreigners. Pretty much like a lot of Russian mappers who add "English" names to everything including a local public toilet in some village.

Planned rendering changes of protected areas 7 months ago

Several notes on this topic. Usage of a leisure key, actually, might contradict a protection status in a lot of cases, where nature reserve doesn't allow any leisure activities. Ownership and enforcement are totally different things from protection level. For example, in Russian Federation, there are huge state-owned protected areas with limited access intended for hunting. They have strict protection enforcement and they usually are equal to class 4 or 6. Private hunting lands with similar access restriction, management level, and enforcement exist in other countries. Someone might argue that if hunting is allowed, it is not a protection, but that's just a personal idea of protection. Actually, it is a broader term than many people think. We already have keys for ownership - no need to introduce anything new and mix it with other features.

However, there is a question about protected areas with different levels. For example, there might exist an area (and I know at least two of them like that) with several adjacents sub-boundaries with different protection class, goals and management levels. Currently, it is unclear how to properly tag something like that using relations, because these aren't separate areas, these are sub-areas.

OSM user survey still open: More female mappers needed! 10 months ago

"Needed" for what exactly (please, answer with a reasonable logical explanation referring to facts, not with another slogan)?

OSM is an open community, there is no single obstacle for anyone to participate, regardless of their gender. If there are fewer females in OSM, it only reflects their free will (lack of will) to participate, nothing else. Equality is not about "having the equal number of these and those", it's about an equal opportunity to exercise own free will.

Комбикорма (комбинированные корма - combined feed) 11 months ago

Во-первых, такие вопросы имеет смысл задавать не в дневниках, а на форуме, в соответствующей теме:

Во-вторых, shop=country_store - очень широкое понятие, которое описывает "магазин для фермеров", при том применяется этот тег очень редко, особенно если исключить магазины, которые им отмечены в рамках импорта магазинов американской сети Tractor Supply. И он действительно дублирует shop=agrarian, который (вероятно, т.к. описания тега не существует) обозначает то же самое.

В-третьих, shop=pet - конечно, никакого отношения к скоту не имеет.

Ну и стоит понимать, что в OSM не существует стройной системы обозначения магазинов по конкретному ассортименту - все существующие обозначения - ассоциативные, отражают в той или иной степени стереотипное представление о магазине, а не то, что в нем действительно продают. Так что можете выбрать хоть agrarian, хоть country_store (второе - менее предпочтительно, потому что значение тега содержит товтологию _store - такие теги обычно отвергаются, если выставляются на формальное голосование) и добавить в description описание, что там продается.