Changeset: 88176811
Name detail.
Closed by stadiaarcadia
Tags
changesets_count | 11457 |
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created_by | iD 2.17.3 |
host | https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit |
imagery_used | BDOrtho IGN |
locale | nl |
Discussion
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Comment from Percherie
Sorry, streets name write whitout caractère -
It's only for city name or when word saint is usedCan you submit correction ?
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Comment from stadiaarcadia
Hi, why is it that it can be found like this on most pages: https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avenue_Pierre-de-Coubertin
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Comment from trial
(almost the same comment as on the other changeset).
We don't mind what Wikipedia say (to some extend ;-)), we do mind French naming rules and commune names get an hyphen (-), hamlets or people names don't. Don't adsk for the logic. Call it cutoms if you want ;-). You can check Rue Paul Philoctete on Mapllary:
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?z=17&lat=43.183055197826086&lng=3.0219531276397515&pKey=kALxGMt8W3O9T4dxJ3xIbA&focus=photo&x=0.7810569291224696&y=0.5195245518201923&zoom=2.97982401748002 -
Comment from Verdy_p
Well, the hyphens in French toponyms is not a strict rule. It used to be a rule for communes, but no longer for "communes nouvelles" (the hyphens are kept in their "communes déléguées").
Hyphens and all punctations (including apostrophes) are also replaced by spaces in printed postal addresses on the last line after the postal code.
There's never been a rule stating that street names and locality names (that are not communes) must use hyphens. This is just an old practive that was used in some places.
And there's never been any space between a leading article and the rest, or between the generic name and the specific name. Other hypens in street names come from some municipal databases, and were just a technical trick to help parse and separate articles, generic names and specific names by whitespaces, when they all were stored in a single data field containign a full postal address or a full address line. In those databases for postal addresses, the streetnames could then be automatically abbreviated where needed (but there's no consistant way to use abbreviations across municipalities or inside many databases of addresses, such as contact lists/agendas: these addresses are bet handled as "freeform" so that you can pack other parts when needed to fit the limitations of length for printed postal addresses) -
Comment from trial
> And there's never been any space between a leading article and the rest, or between the generic name and the specific name.
He meant just the opposite: https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/107435 is written Le Mans not Le-Mans, LeMans or whatsoever: space or apostrophe if L' like in L'Isle-Adam. -
Comment from Verdy_p
@trial: I meant this in the street name.
You speak about municipality and the hyphenation of municipality is no longer a requirement for "communes nouvelles" (it remains for communes déléguées).
As I said, in **printed postal addresses** you may (and even should) replace all hyphens and aopstrophes by spaces. This transform does not apply here in OSM as we are not printing addresses on enveloppes and don't abbreviate them like on envelopes.
I've not said that hyphenation is systematic in "Le-Mans" still written "Le Mans" with a space in OSM and on printed addresses where it is also capitalized after the postal code ("LE MANS"), or in "L-Isle-Adam", still written formally "L'Isle-Adam" in OSM, but written "L ISLE ADAM" in printed postal addresses (capitalized and replacing the apostrophe with a pspace only after the postal code).
For other parts of the printed postal addres (street names), the capitalization is not required (just suggested), but the replacement of all punctuation signs (including ".", apostrophe, hyphen) by spaces is preferable (as well abbreviations may be necessary to fit the length limit of these addresses or if there's the need to add precisions (building/room/door/level numbers, that don't fit on the limit of 5 lines);: for this, La Poste indicates abbreviations that should be used. If names are still too long they may be abbreviated further at end (e.g. "Route de la Chapelle-des-Fougeretz" may be printed on enveloppes as "RTE DE LA CHAPELLE DES FTZ" without any dot or hyphen.Printed postal addresses are special, and FANTOIR contains some additional fields capitalized that exhibit the suggested non-ambiguous and capitalized abbreviations of street names (also without accents or cedilla). We don't want these altered names in OSM (except possibly in "short_name", but this is not needed if all what is abbreviated is the generic, like "RTE" instead of "Route" or "BD" instead of "Boulevard", as these abbreviations are predefined in a wellknown dataset, fully documented.
Other common abbreviations for postal addresses (outside street names or city names) include "BAT" for "Bâtiment", "ESC" for "Escalier", "PTE" for "Porte", "ETG" for "étage", "RDC" for "Rez-de-Chaussée". They are useful to fit more info on limited lines of addresses.But the last line with the postal code must remain below the limit so the municimality name may be abbreviated in addition to being capitzlized and written without accents/punctuations
(it may be followed by an additional line for the country name when posting from another country, capitalized "FRANCE", as the convention of prefixing the French postal code by "FR-" is not universal in other countries, even if it could avoid an additional line; for example in it not understood when posting from outside Europe, notably countries where the Latin script is not well understood: using "FRANCE" in capital only makes this clear for the local postal services)
As well when writing from France to these countries, we should write their countries in plain text (we an name therse countries in French, this is meant for the French postal service; the rest of the address above can be written using the script used at the target address, in Cyrillic, Chinese, Japanese kanas, Hebrew, Arabic... as this part will be read locally: the part above the country name uses the local conventions of the target country, including for the placement of city names street names and house numbers, postal codes, people name, and so on). Placing the country name at end on a separate line is sufficient (you can name this country in French, or in English, or abbreviated if it's well known like "USA"). -
Comment from Verdy_p
Note also that you are not required to write the country name on a fina line if this name is a "city-state" whose name is usually alreayd written at end of their local address: "MONACO", "SINGAPORE", "VATICANO"; provided it is written in Latin and capitalized when posting from France (if you ant to write Singapore in Chinese, then repeat it in Latin on an additional line).
Monaco also uses a French postal code. No need to add also the "MC-" prefix to this postal code.
The list lien with the country name should be in a language rea -
Comment from Verdy_p
in a language read easily by the French poste; this last line with the country name has no use when delivered later in that country so it does not change the total limit of 5 lines for the rest of the printed address.
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Comment from Verdy_p
In summary, what applies to printed postal addresses does not apply in OSM. We don't need these transforms for default "name=*"; we may jsut need "short-name=*" if possible abbreviations are not common and basic truncation of long words (without predefined abbreviations) could break the interpretation and could become ambiguous.
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Comment from Verdy_p
Oh thanks, I effectively meant "ther'es never been any hyphen (not "space") between the leading article and the rest, or between the generic and the specific name".
As well there's never any space (in French), between the elision apostrophe (l', d', s', n') and the following word, but that apostrophe may be replaced by a space on printed postal addresses, not in OSM. This is not true for other languages (e.g. in Italian regional languages) where the space is most often kept after the elision apostrophe, which occurs much more often and more irregularly, ort when the apostrohpe is in fact a placeholder for a glottal or epigolttal consonant or click absent from the Basic Latin alphabet (e.g. in Latinized Semitic, Polynesian or African languages), when the prefered letter exists in Unicode but is rarely used (in some languages, a digraph like "kh" or "qh" or "'gh", or just the letter "q" or "h" may be used to represent that missing letter even if this is not pronounced exactly like the normal Latin letter or the prefered letter is mssing in the usable alphabet of the sender, like the "barred h" prefered in Maltese) -
Comment from cquest
Wikipedia articles about Paris street names incorrectly use hyphens in names where it should not.
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avenue_Pierre-de-Coubertin but https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_de_CoubertinParis opendata is clear : https://opendata.paris.fr/explore/dataset/voie/table/?q=coubertin
"Avenue Pierre de Coubertin"It would have been to ask the local community first ;)
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Comment from Verdy_p
Ys for Wikipedia, they were wrong, but the debates there were highly biased a few influencers with too much power, insisting only because this convention was used in some specific databases or applications that would otherwise not treat addresses correctly (even if printed postal addreses never contain any hyphen, even after "Saint(e)" where they should be replaced by spaces, and capitalized without accent, a preconisation in fact abandonned for printed addresses using clear fonts with decent sizes and no decorative features, but still recommanded for handwritten addresses or when manually filling paper forms with a pen with irregular letter shapes that could be incorrectly read)
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Comment from cquest
Philippe, please, don't mix.
Normalized postal address is another thing, they depend on letter limited space and so on, but do not rule how streets are named by cities, only how these names should be written as an address on a letter/parcel sent by snail mail. -
Comment from Verdy_p
@cquest, you reiterate what I said and summarized "In summary, what applies to printed postal addresses does not apply in OSM"
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Comment from Verdy_p
Anyway postal adresses are not necessarily geographic (see also the recuring debates with "addr:*=*" fields, also not all geographic; and then non-geographic postal addresses better fit in "contact:*=*" fields)
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