Changeset: 74552428
revert undiscussed automated retagging of objects where i have presented reasons to keep existing tagging
Closed by freebeer
Tags
bot | yes |
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created_by | osmtools/30252 (linux) |
Discussion
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Comment from stevea
Seems your 'bot is overzealous, freebeer.
Your "revert undiscussed automated retagging of objects where I prevented reasons to keep existing tagging" statement, especially when issued by a 'bot, is hyperbolic hubris.This started because it appeared a place=suburb tag is proposed to be deleted because it seems TFTR and then a FIXME becoming a fixme tag triggered this very wide-area 'bot-slap. I don't need such alarms going off in my face, so please adjust both attitude and code accordingly.
If that sounds impolite, please know I only want to go to "stern," not impolite.
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Comment from freebeer
i'm not sure where the place=suburb comes in, because all i am doing is reverting an ongoing country-wide undiscussed mechanical edit that multiple users have taken issue with and the DWG has weighed in on. mechanical edits such as this that are affecting multiple tens of thousands of mapper contributions.
i'm not sure either how this would be triggering any sort of alarms, but the edits in the first place should have triggered just as many alarms unless you've done something out of the ordinary.
if the original mechanical retagging had been acted upon sooner then there would have been fewer changesets, but i have seen no discussion of this on the tagging mailing list, talk-us as it appears to be country-wide aiming at 100% coverage, or even in the general talk mailing list where a similar revert of a mechanical edit in saxon switzerland has been discussed but not acted upon yet.
are you getting notifications for the edits carried out like
relation 9266256 last edited as v2; restoring previous version 1 by 'stevea'
? that shouldn't be the case as v3 bears my username and v2 bears the other user's,and how is a changeset in hawaii setting off alarms for you? california i maybe could see.
anyway, the earlier mechanical edits mixed together several uncontroversial edits with other controversial ones. which still should be documented and discussed, but without a clean separation they are not so easy.
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Comment from stevea
Your "not sure" is likely because you haven't read the History of the node.
It appears (I do believe this but I could be slightly mistaken) that I entered FIXME tags which get 'bot corrected to fixme and somehow your bot gets involved as "something you edited" (as did I, or I entered a FIXME).
It's not gigantic, it's annoying, it's "like" an alarm going off (when it doesn't need to) as it's a mechanical ping-pong between FIXME and fixme and FIXME and your bot notices and I get notified because I'm in the edit history.
I am editing in Hawaii as I help user:ZeLonewolf with admin_level, place, census polygon tagging on Oahu as he was importing census and we've been sort of tight the last few days off-list (so you wouldn't know that) after being public on talk-imports for a few weeks. I don't expect you to know that either but it has been public and our database is so open you could look at histories or read a talk-page or click the History tag as it keeps all of us better informed.
I hear you when you say "not so easy" and I appreciate whatever efforts you expend to pour a little cool water on your 'bots, thanks in advance for those efforts. Yes, it is the edit trails where we overlap where such triggers go off, now I hope you have a better idea how to quiet it down. Cheers.
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Comment from freebeer
ohhh-kay...
this changeset reverted a changeset that touched nearly a hundred items. i would not be reviewing every item. one changeset covered around 5'000 items, maybe part of california heavily mapped where users aren't afraid to voice uncertainties.
i take it you somehow get a notification if you are in the edit history for everything someone edits? wow. i did not know that was possible, and i certainly would not want that for all the items i've seen you edit, what with prolonged edit wars and the number of items that aren't at v1.
your FIXMEs were not bot-changed, but by a user who has failed to reply to any changeset comments (a DWG block could be needed) and seems to be running mostly mechanical edits, some aplying iD presets or controversial retagging, which is frowned on by the osm community i know.
a bot would be something like wall-e or xybot, well documented and mostly accepted by the community. i do not run such a bot. i use scripts that act on manually selected edits, whether vandalism, changes-gone-bad, or in this case an unapproved and undiscussed mechanical edit.
like i say, i've no idea how or why you get a notification, but i'd think there should be the possibility to not get a trigger when osmtools makes an edit. the bot label you see is a bit iffy to go by as i've seen bad edits use it where you *should* want to see what is up, while trusting those who run osmtools to be doing undeletions or reverts to a previous edit state, or other DWG-type edits that look to be all it can do when in capable hands.
but without knowing how the notifications originate, i can't suggest a way to implement that exclusion (or if it's desirable. i've only randomly seen my work appear like too often in this retagging, where in the changeset discussions seen at https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=905716 - 52 of them so far, 62 comments, not a single reply or change of behaviour - , i hope it won't have to continue to go up by much). that was the only way i was aware of to learn of my reverts without searching them out.
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Comment from stevea
I appreciate that you took the time to type all that, even the snark about California.
I have not had "prolonged edit wars," that is a false characterization on your part and looks a lot like you casting the first stone.
Whether something is at v1 or not matters not. Somebody has to enter data the first time.
Good to hear that as some loose-cannon user is making a mess, you are on the hunt.
Scripts, bots, both are "automated edits" and your distinctions are awry, largely meaningless.
"You have no idea why I'd get notification" is no excuse for either lack of acknowledgement that I did, or taking responsibility that it was your changeset (via automated edit scripts) that caused it to happen.
This does sound like it can be swept away as a simple misunderstanding, of which I firmly place onus of responsibility squarely on your shoulders. While I appreciate that you are trying to limit damage or vandalism by an as-yet-unnamed perpetrator, you look like one yourself when your countermeasures produce unintended and unpleasant results.
Please be more careful with your automated edits in the future. If you don't understand what the tools you are using do, including unintended consequences, I (and other members of the community) prefer you not use them.
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Comment from freebeer
(this isn't wanting to post. try again)
the so-called california snark was an honest comment that while i see you are active all over, i would expect that if you have opted into notifications somehow, i would expect it to be geographically limited to your area of greatest interest, as the feeds i am aware of provided by osm cover a fairly limited area. so that to get full coverage of the us of a you would need to divide into multiple squares. which if you did so, you would be seeing a lot more revert activity over the years that i encounter.
but then i have never ever received notification from osm (just the occasional heads-up via the message system) that anyone has edited an item i have worked on, despite knowing many thousands have been touched.
the edit wars do not refer to your activity, but to outsiders, the worst case i know being a particularly persistent vandal in rochester michigan who may have finally given up after a live three-pronged defence with immediate reversions. some pokemon vandals fall into this category before they give up. further edit wars appear to take place in disputed areas. in any case the version numbers often rapidly increment into the dozens to hundreds with no action on your behalf.
i am not going to speculate why you take offence other than to state it is irrelevant to this revert, except where the user already made a second pass over an area despite being asked by the DWG to stop the retagging several days before.
i understand fully well what my tools do. they connect to the api server, download info about the changeset, then for each item, perform a GET to get the necessary data to either determine whether the item has since been modified, or to increment the version with a PUT with an earlier data status. it then sends a comment to document what has been done (also helping with recordkeeping for widespread cases like the driveway deletion carried out in small steps where i missed one) and closes the changeset.
it sends no mails. it makes no other api calls related to messaging, if that is possible. it is just like any other edit whether carried out by josm, or iD proxy automated validator retagging edits.
i get it, there is something notifying you of every change made to any object you touch, and apparently the retagging to kick this all off didn't bother you despite happening just as many or more times, and i take it you would have the same objection if the DWG had stepped in in my stead and used the very same tools to perform the same reverts, again touching items you have modified.
you can if you like choose to tag things with the lowercase fixme it seems some want to force on all mappers but as a non-data tag meant for human mappers, i have chosen to respect the choice of the original mapper to use a tag that sticks out prominently in multiple ways.
i take responsibility for what my changesets do to the map data. but i cannot take responsibility for unintended consequences if someone has wired themselves up to be notified for every item i upload, for that would be absurd, yet still possible to do with minutely updates.
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Comment from stevea
Nice chatting with you.
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