Changeset: 64937230
Russian occupational nicknames correct in name ON Ground
Closed by Poliakoff Mykhailo
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (14382 uk) |
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Discussion
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Comment from Pikse
I don't get why "name:et" value was turned into "alt_name:et" here. "Kiiev" is the only common name variant for this place in Estonian language, and currently it's unavailable for localized consumers. I'm going to restore it.
Besides, what does "on ground" mean regarding place names anyway? If it means name variant on local signs then this would relavant regarding only two local languages. Other languages may use other name variants common in these languages.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
I returned the name et Kiiova and alt_name =Kijova, Kiiuva, Laane et
and old_name: et = Kievo
Kievo is an old translation, it became outdated in the 2000s
Now use the real Ukrainian name as in Wikipedia -
Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/65324563
NEW VERSION ON GROUND
Kõjiv CREATED ON THE BASIS OF UKRAINIAN NAME KYIV (КИЇВ)KYIV: ROAD SIGNS ONLY KYIV
- Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
https://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiiev -- have wikipedia
usage example
https://www.ohtuleht.ee/810867/peeter-olesk-jabur-konflikt-suur-katastroof
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
You do not live in Kiev and were not in 2018 in this city.
Therefore, the alternative name from the Estonian Wikipedia is correct.In your letters to friends in Ukraine or in scientific works about Ukraine, use the name at will.
And in this draft rule he is grund and the name he grund is confirmed by Estonian wikipedia.I will control this object. Your version of the name is saved in the alt_name tag
The name of the article in Wikipedia is not an argument because the rule is he grund. -
Comment from Pikse
Sorry, I don't follow what you mean. Neither "Kiiev" nor "Kõjiv" is has nothing to do with what's "on ground" in this place. In Estonian language almost always exonym "Kiiev" is used. "Kõjiv" is corrrect in Ukrainian-Estonian transcription, but it's odd as it's rarely used. You can easily google Estonian-language results for both name variants to check this. So I don't see any good reason to prefer "Kõjiv" over "Kiiev" here. This does not align with actual use.
Neither do I follow logic in your explanation. I don't think that my place of residence has got anything to do with correct name in Estonian.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
The essence of our project is to display information "on the ground"
Anything can be used in Estonia. But when the Estonian arrives in Kiev, he will see that Kiiev is not a reality in this area.
When an Estonian compares Kojiv with a local reality, he will see that he is correct.
Moreover, when an Estonian reads Kojiv, it will sound the same as in the Ukrainian language.
This project was not created for copying databases.
That is why a little-known translation is correct according to the rules.
Especially since it is confirmed.
The essence of our project is to display information "on the ground"
Anything can be used in Estonia. But when the Estonian arrives in Kiev, he will see that Kiiev is not a reality in this area.
When an Estonian compares Kojiv with a local reality, he will see that he is correct.
Moreover, when an Estonian reads Kojiv, it will sound the same as in the Ukrainian language.
This project was not created for copying databases.
That is why a little-known translation is correct according to the rules.
Especially since it is confirmed.Understand more - now we are at war with the Russians.
For several centuries of the Russian occupation - we are tired of reading Russian name distortions about Ukraine.
Estonia has long been under Russian occupation. Therefore, you should be familiar with the feelings of hostility towards Russians for the distortion of Estonian surnames or cities. -
Comment from Pikse
I'm aware of "on the ground" principle, but it isn't really applicable on place names. By your logic you should remove all name variants besides Ukrainian (and maybe Russian), because people will not see these names variants in Kiev. Somehow you accepted "Kõjiv", but probably you won't find this on local signs in Kiev either.
Note that there is "loc_name" and language specific variants like "loc_name:de" have been used as well. These can be used for local name variants, in case they differs from common name ("name" key and language variants like "name:de"). In order to determine common name in a language you need to examine sources in this language (not country), local signs don't tell anything about name variants in languages that are not common in Kiev. Contrarily, what would be the point indicating that languages use name variants that they either don't use or that they very rarely use? That would be largely misleading.
It's up to users of given language to determine which words they use. You shouldn't really try to politicize place name usage in all languages. Languages evolve the way they evolve, as a result there are loan words (including many loan names). Similary, French city has name "Nice", but Italian name "Nizza" is used instead in serveral languages like German or Finnish. There's no need to blame historic nations for having had language contacts because of this.
Technical note on Ukrainian-Estonian transcription: using it for most places names in Ukraine is appropriate, but there is a handful of places (e.g. Kiiev (Київ), Krimm (Крим), Podoolia (Поділля)) for which usually exonyms are used instead. You may want to read about exonyms on Wikipedia [1].
What do you mean "control this object"? I don't think you have ownership over this label node, and everyone else can propose/implement changes as well. Generally speakers of a language have better expertise on deciding which name variants are used in this language. I hope we can settle this without OSM data working group needing to intervene.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
Kojiv is in the Estonian Wikipedia. Ask the Estonian Wikipedia to remove the Kojiv translation - this is the only way to remove the Kojiv that meets the requirements on the ground.
After the stolen Crimea and 10,000 Ukrainians who are killed by Russian separatists in the Donbas - get it right, - there is no moral strength and patience to look at the map of Ukraine with Russian occupational nicknames.
This is my explanation why I am againstKyiv was freed from the occupation in 1991 in part. And now the Ukrainians have confirmed that they will not return to the Russian prison.
My friend was killed by Russian separatists in the Donbass. Give you permission to speak Russian - - - this is
desecration of memory of the defender of the Motherland Ukraine . Your request for a Russian occupational nickname during the war with Russia is a spit in the soul. My godfather's son got a contusion. After a direct hit by an artillery shell in an armored personnel carrier, he miraculously survived. All who were with him in the armored personnel carrier died.Therefore, learn to look at a real Ukraine with real names and stop talking about Ukraine as a copy of Russia with Russian names.
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Comment from Pikse
I feel sorry for current situation in Ukraine and I'm in no way endorsing Russian aggression. Nonetheless I don't see any relation between this or past occupations in Ukraine and name variants used in various Latin-script languages that are not and have not been local languages in Ukraine.
If you rely on Wikipedia, then you should really accept "Kiiev", which is the article title and which is used throughout Estonian Wikipedia. I've nothing against mentioning "Kõjiv" on Wikipedia, and here as "alt_name:et" value. The problem is that currently rarely used name variant is preferred here.
Not that it matters a lot in relaton to this matter, but "Kiiev" by the way is not in Russian. It's Estonian-language name, though a loan name adapted from Russian. Transcription of Russian-language name in Estonian would be "Kiev", not "Kiiev".
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Comment from KKS
Pikse I copy-paste "Kõjiv" into a google-translate in push a spell button and it sounds perfectly as city named.
If we here decide call Tallinn like - "smallseaville", it's only our problem. That city not exist and we can't name it like that.
Same story about Kiev. He didn't exist. Only Kyiv -
Comment from Pikse
Using Google Translate isn't an argument of any sort, and also I can't reproduce what you say. For obvious reasons it only recongnizes "Kiiev", not "Kõjiv" (correct, but rare) if translating between Estonian and Ukrainian and Estonian or Ukrainian.
I don't what you are trying to prove with your Tallinn example or what it has got to do with anything. The difference is that there's probably no language where "smallseaville" for Tallinn would be common, and various name variants besides Kyiv are common for Kiev in Latin-script languages.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
Chinese Wikipedia uses the Ukrainian name
Wikipedia in the language of the island of Java (Javanese) uses the Ukrainian name.For example, recently Javanese Wikipedia at my request changed the name to Ukrainian Kyiv
Your argument is that kIEV is wrong. Abroad, the Ukrainian name is already used.
Return to the beginning of the conversation. I wa provided an example of the use of Kojiv by ordinary Estonians.Under the aggressive onslaught of Russian books --- Estonia studies the geography of Ukraine in a distorted form.
The geography of Estonia is not independent, it is influenced by Russia. -
Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
Please tell us why you do not want to agree with the modern translation that is confirmed?
For example, I explained the reasons why Kojiv is important to me
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Comment from Pikse
This varies language by language. Kyiv in Javanese or whatever you suggest to Chinese may be common or otherwise appropriate in these languages. I can't judge that without being well familiar with these languages.
I haven't told anything about "Kiev" being wrong. There are Latin-script languages where this is the common and conventional name variant (either exonym or regular romanized name variant), and others that use some other name variant (like "Kiiev" in Estonian or "Kiew" in German). I also never argued that "Kõjiv" hasn't been used, I only brought out that compared to "Kiiev" it's used very rarely.
Above I brought an example of Nice (Nizza) in order to broaden your understanding of use of place names in various languages. Here's another example: London's name in languages like Italian, Romanian and Turkish is "Londra", not the "correct" English name "London". Now, rhetorically speaking, in your opinion are users of these languages not independent or who force them to user "wrong" name?
No offence, but you simply aren't an authority on all languages of the world.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
Describe how many cartographers in the Estonian community participated in the discussion? How did the Estonian community explain the reason for the refusal not to use the real name Kojiv in principle?
Why is the rule of the argument on the ground for the Estonian community is not an argument? -
Comment from Pikse
In this matter use of place names in a language is really no different from use of other words in a language. Some words (including name variants) catch up, they become common, other words are less common or rare. Languages envolve without language users discussing or voting on particular words. "Kõjiv" is just rare, noone disapproved its use.
I honestly don't know what do you mean by "on the ground" in relation to use of place names in different languages. "On the ground" in sense of OSM principle is not applicable here as it has got nothing to do with almost all languages of the world that are not common in Kiev. Even in relation Ukrainian language use of "on the ground" is dubious, if it relies only on specific use on street signs, instead of examining all Ukrainian language sources. Unless Ukrainian language sources are laid down on streets of Kiev to illustrate a point of course. :)
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
Where is it written that the on ground rule does not work when translating into a foreign language (in situations of choosing a translation option)?
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Comment from KKS
Pikse, I use Google Trasnslaste only for spelling not for translate.
"are common for Kiev in Latin-script languages." - it became common cuz 80 yrs soviet occupation call it like and 300 yrs before russian empire call it like that. But all his history name of this city was - Kyiv.
If we occupied Tallinn and 80 yrs will call it "smallseaville" - it became as common on latin-lansguages. But will Estonians change that name for own city? - NO!. so don't change name of our city.
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Comment from Pikse
Poliakoff, I don't know where. Where is it written the opposite? "On the ground" just doesn't make any sense in relation to this matter as already explained above.
KKS, very well, you spelled it, but this still doesn't contribute anything to determining common name variant(s) in Estonian language.
Why would I mind if some languages use other name than "Tallinn"? It's normal that languages occasionally translate names (they use different name variants or entirely different names for the same place). In fact, some languages like Spanish use "Tallin" (one 'n') which may very well be Russian influence, but it's really up to these languages. Also, check examples of Nice (Nizza) and London (Londra) which are not due to occupations or alike.
Or similarly, country name in Ukrainian is "Естонія". I don't know why on Earth would I, but you probably assume I should blame you for changing it into something else than "Єєсті"?
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Comment from Pikse
I sent a letter about this to OSM data working group.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
Submit the letter text in DWG
I’m wondering what arguments can lead to breaking the rules on ground
I gave you evidence in the Estonian Wikipedia. According to the Estonian Wikipedia - Kojiv translation is correct -
Comment from Pikse
We handled this above: 1) "on the ground" does not seem to have any relevance on this matter, and 2) "Kõjiv" (not "Kojiv") is correct, but rare compared to "Kiiev" in Estonian.
My letter to DWG concerns several Kiev name variants in Latin-script languages that have been changed in the same manner over the last months.
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Comment from KKS
Pikse, yep... it should be "Еесті". Cuz we must call it like locals do. Common this or not it's doesn't matter. People in massive amounts could be wrong.
More likeable example is Finland or Suomi , most of people really call it like natives do.
You can make a small village in Eesti and name it Kiev. But capital of Ukraine on a river Dnirpo called - Kyiv.
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Comment from Pikse
Well, in reality, as also shown by current use of OSM tags, pretty much no other language than Estonian uses "Eesti" and pretty much no other language than Finnish uses "Suomi". So obviously "on the ground" has limits.
If Ukrainian users decide to rename countries and other places in their language on OSM then good luck with it, but don't expect users of other languages to come along with this experiment.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
For our project the main thing:
--- this information must be verified
----- match on groundSir, I spoke with the Estonian community. Only one person responded. I concluded that Estonians do not care what kind of translation.
I wonder why you personally ignore my request to create an extensive discussion?
Why do you personally alone want to decide everything for the community of countries ?
Why didn’t you ask the countries ’countries - their personal attitude to the Kyiv translationFor our project the main thing:
--- this information must be verified
----- match on groundSir, I spoke with the Estonian community. Only one person responded. I concluded that Estonians do not care what kind of translation.
I wonder why you personally ignore my request to create an extensive discussion?
Why do you personally alone want to decide everything for the community?
Why didn’t you ask the countries ’communities - their personal attitude to the Kyiv translationFor our project the main thing:
--- this information must be verified
----- match on groundSir, I spoke with the Estonian community. Only one person responded. I concluded that Estonians do not care what kind of translation.
I wonder why you personally ignore my request to create an extensive discussion?Why do you personally alone want to decide everything for the community?
Why didn’t you ask the countries ’associations - their personal attitude to the Kyiv translationWrite the translation to which languages you don’t like?
provide a copy of the letter in DWG - it was honest and decent. -
Comment from Pikse
I managed to find this 3 days old response from ee-talk mail list and I must say that "Estonians do not care" is a heavy distortion of this response. This response clearly states that we should stick to "Kiiev" and not use "Kõjiv" until language tradition has changed.
Blaming me for not creating extensive discussion makes little sense while in the first place it was you who personally decided to change status quo regarding several Latin-script languages, not only Estonian.
Let's try to keep this discussion constructive and refrain from spam tactics (you just copied your reply three times in a row). Merely repeating claims that were already parried doesn't contribute to anything either.
My letter to DWG is a summary of this discussion. If it's deemed necessary then DWG has my permission to copy it here.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
Reak You have no arguments at all Your argument is my personal desire to do only how I want
It's goThe reaction of only 1 person is the reaction of the whole community.
In addition, that table is deceiving when it says that there is no Kyiv translation in European languages.
For example, there is a decree of the Italian government in which Kyiv is used.
senato.it/japp/bgt/showdoc/frame.jsp?tipodoc=Resaula&leg=13&id=00006825&part=doc_dc-ressten_rs-gentit_cem-intervento_presidente&parse=noIt says that Estonians don't care what kind of translation, this topic is not interesting for them.
In addition, 1 person in that session provided a table with errors.
There, for example, an ancient Chinese translation was written. The Chinese have long been using the translation of Jifu, that is, kYIV -
Comment from Pikse
Well, now you have feedback from two Estonian-language users (me and user from mail list). You didn't like what the other used said and you decided to lie about his response ("Estonians don't care") hoping that noone finds out. Having been caught using deceitful manners like this in my opinion is enough reason why you should back off from this subject now.
You apparently refer to place name database KNAB. Besides Estonian name variants It only intends to offer a little selection of non-Estonian name variants, including less common ones and historical ones. So even if Chinese name over there is uncommon (I don't know it it is, I obviously can't take your word for it), then it still isn't wrong. Some rare uses of "Kyiv" in some Latin-script languages does not change the fact that it isn't common. You can easily google language-specific results and check different language Wikipedias to check that.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
Show me the Openstreetmap rule in which it is written that between several versions - we only choose the most used one.
There is no such rule, I'm sure. The decision to choose a translation is simply the result of communication. I gave you all the arguments for the Ukrainian name.
You must understand the choice of translating the name of the city - this is a reflection of the geopolitical reality
Kiiev Kiev is a name written in Moscow when Ukraine was part of Russia.Now Ukraine is de facto and de jure and geopolitically completely independent of Russia
Our project is built on the display of reality
So new translations are the reality mapping - complete independence from Russia
You can come to Kyiv and make sure Kyiv is completely independent of Russia.
Therefore, the translation complies with all the rules of the Openstreetmap project.Kyiv's translation is as alternative in wikipedia - this is enough
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
There is a modern translation and it is correct - this is Kyiv
Foreigners need to get used to the real names of Ukrainian cities.
Our project reflects reality. Our project cannot break the ground rule for the sake of the desire of one cartographer.
Need a single solution. Please note - at the moment only you defend the translation Kiev in this discussion. -
Comment from Pikse
There indeed doesn't seem to be a certain rule about when to use which name variant. Neither is there a weird OSM rule you suggest that all foreign languages can use only names variants that are approved at location of given place. Using common name approach however is supported by status quo and general practise on OSM, at least for languages regarding which "on the ground" principle is irrelevant (i.e. Latin-script languages in this case).
No, as you very well know I'm not the only one who advocates using name variants that are actually used in languages. As already pointed out, you got response from another Estonian user who said we should stick to "Kiiev", at least for now. Also, another German user here already restored their their name variant "Kiew" that had been messed up in similar manner lately.
I now looked at English Wikipedia talk page for "Kiev". Issue there is similar: some Ukrainians occasionally try to suggest that title "Kiev" is wrong. The difference between OSM and Wikipedia is that it isn't that simple to do weird changes on Wikipedia without anyone noticing. What you do here is, I quote from Wikipedia talk, "continuation of the Ukrainian-Russian conflict in the sphere of toponymy". This is just silly as names in Latin-script langauges have nothing to do with this conflict. If you feel too strongly about the subject, so that you end up politicizing things and forget that the idea was to provide quality data, then you should really let other people handle the subject.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
Kiev is the Russian occupation name of the Ukrainian city written in Moscow and tucked into the tongues.
About the German Kyjiw - - I did not search for arguments.
In the near future I will do this.
Ukraine is an independent state and therefore there will be no Russian occupational nicknames
On the basis of the on ground rule, Ukrainian cartographers will always change to Ukrainian kyivWhat really uses abroad is not interesting for us.
sooner or later, the onslaught of Ukrainians will change the situation - and Kiev will be forgotten about the translation.
For DWG, the main thing is the confirmation of information (translation kyiv confirmed) and compliance with the rules on ground
All these criteria translation Kyiv meets.Now the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine is writing official letters to international agencies with a request to use the Kyiv translation.
For example, the international news agency BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/search?q=Kyiv+ is the fact of using Kyiv on an equal footing with the Russian occupational nonsense Kiev -
Comment from Pikse
Your still not even trying to make any sense with your "on the ground" claims. It's probably very hard, if not impossible, to find signs in French, signs in Estonian, signs in Dutch, signs in German etc. in Kiev.
Note that international use (e.g. use by international organizations) is one thing and use in particular languages of the world is another thing. International organizations may very well already use "Kyiv", e.g. United Nations that has approved Ukrainian national romanization. Particular languages how ever have their own conventions.
In relation to international usage and in attempt to bring this discussion back on track I've constructive note: there's "int_name" key that is currently not used for Kiev label node. It'd probably make sense to provide "Kyiv" as value for this key. So "Kyiv" can be preserved even if most Latin-script languages (including English) don't use it as common name.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
Before continuing our conversation, I ask you to remember what
kIEV - is russian ocupational nickname
And to treat as ocupational nickname which Russian expressed contempt for the Ukrainian peopleFor example, Michelinusch in the French version of Kiev uses Kyiv Also Kyiv is in the discussions of the French Wikipedia
Also, if you search in wikipedia discussions, there is a translation of Kyiv in other languages
Some European Wikipedia with arrogance and contempt reacted to the Ukrainian request and at the very beginning blocked the development of the discussion.
But this is not the reason to write only Kiev in Openstreetmap.If there is no Kyiv translation in Wikipedia, it still doesn’t say anything.
I advise you to dial Kyiv in the Internet search engines and tick off: French then other languages - you will find Kyiv in the language you need
Some Wikipedia's contempt for this topic is not a reason to use a Russian occupational nickname that violates the rule on ground.
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Comment from Pikse
I'm sorry, but you are still not making any sense. I conclude that you have barely any knowledge of Latin-script languages that you are trying to deal with if you bluntly label their various traditonal names with long histories as "russian ocupational nickname".
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Comment from KKS
Pikse, are this two places should be named with same name on Estonian?
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/275380300
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/421866You didn't find any difference?
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Comment from KKS
BTW Pikse how you name group of 3 countries? Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania?
in russian manner - "lands before Baltic sea" or like smarter rest of the world - "Baltic countries" ?to which group do you belong to?
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Comment from Pikse
KSS, no, different. Capital of Ukraine is Kiiev and place in Russia is Kiev. First is an exonym in Estonian and second is written in Russian-Estonian transcription (as already pointed out above).
Literally it's "Baltic countries" in Estonian. Which however does not mean that this name is more Estonian or local than, say, Kiiev. This particular name is probably of German or Latin origin. In Estonian there are also many other conventional place names that come from some wide-spread (non-local) language and for which there is no intention to change them (e.g. Kairo or Bangkok).
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
The capital of Ukraine is about Kyiv or Kojiv (in Estonian)
I officially ask the Ukrainian community not to enter into any discussions with Pikse
Pikse came here to control the UkrainiansDiscussion with the Ukrainian community is over.
Reason for ending the discussion: you use the abusive Russian occupation name Kiev Kiiev
Ukraine has no city at all Kiiev Kiev
Goodbye . When you learn the word Kyiv, then come -
Comment from Pikse
Poliakoff, repeating this all over again unfortunately does not make it true. It's only you who's trying to control other people all over the world (their languages that you don't even know and that has pretty much nothing to do with Ukrainians).
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
Kiev is a Russian occupational nickname. Communicating with the Ukrainians - you must understand this
In 1991, the city of Kyiv was liberated from the Russian-Soviet occupation due to the liquidation of the USSR.
Moscow’s attempt to return Kyiv to a Russian prison failed due to Euromaidan and the resilience and masculinity of the Ukrainian volunteer soldiers. Ukraine has proved to the world community that it will not return to the Russian geopolitical prison.
It is for these reasons that the most well-known cartographic Internet services Google Maps Bing Hero.wego.com Yandex ( INTERNATIONAL VERSION )Michelin.com corrected as a show of respect on KyivWhen you come to talk about the Ukrainian object, you need to be able to listen and perceive the arguments of the people, in the territory of which the object is located.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
Kiev is a Russian occupational nickname. Communicating with the Ukrainians - you must understand this
In 1991, the city of Kyiv was liberated from the Russian-Soviet occupation due to the liquidation of the USSR.
Moscow’s attempt to return Kyiv to a Russian prison failed due to Euromaidan and the resilience and masculinity of the Ukrainian volunteer soldiers. Ukraine has proved to the world community that it will not return to the Russian geopolitical prison.
It is for these reasons that the most well-known cartographic Internet services Google Google Maps Bing Hero.wego.com Michelin.com corrected as a show of respect on kyivWhen you come to talk about the Ukrainian object, you need to be able to listen and perceive the arguments of the people, in the territory of which the object is located.
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Comment from SomeoneElse
@Poliakoff Mykhailo Comments like the one that you have just made (and a number of others you've made on this changeset) have no place in OSM. OSM is not the place to make your political points, however much people may sympathise with the situation that Ukraine and Ukrainians now find themselves in.
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Comment from SomeoneElse
@Poliakoff Mykhailo You do get to decide, based on on-the-ground signage, what the name for Kyiv is in Ukrainian. You don't get to decide what name it is usually referred to as in other languages, unless you can find evidence for it in that language. It may well be that those other languages will adapt to using Kyiv rather than Kiev over time, just as has happened with other former "occupation names" elsewhere such as Calcutta/Kolkata . If you believe that this has actually happened, then I'd suggest that you'd need to find some evidence _in Estonian_ of Kyiv being used rather than Kiev. I'd start by looking for locally-produced tourist information leaflets which hopefully will be available under a licence suitable for use in OSM (wikipedia, alas, is not).
Please try and engage positively with other mappers. Saying that they need to "get used to" things will not help your cause, either on this individual issue or any wider ones. -
Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
If we now choose the fake name Kiiev - then we will break two rule-concept of the project on ground
The real name of the Ukrainian capital is alternative to viikpediyah and this is enoughFor example, the Italian translation was used in the Italian government and that is enough that in name: it was Kyiv (link to the site of the Italian senate senato.it / ........... is in the comment to the edit
French translation is in the discussions in the French Wikipedia, there are also examples of real use.
If foreigners are brought up the habit of using fake Ukrainian names (the same Kyiv)- then this is not a reason to break the rule on ground. The goal of our project is to display real information on the ground and not to distort it so that for the convenience of someone
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Comment from KKS
Бггг палковнік Баріс не паліться.
Kiev - it's a village in russia
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
I propose to make a compromise decision that everyone will like
The essence of the compromise is to record two translations into languages simultaneously.
for example in Estonian it will look like Kojiv Kiiev
In German Kyjiw Kiew
and so it is identical in the languages that I fixed
I believe that this option will satisfy everyone and the discussion will be over.
Returning back of the Russian name Kiev is a violation of the rules on ground
The rule on the ground cannot be violated due to the fact I propose to make a compromise decision that everyone will like
The essence of the compromise is to record two translations into languages simultaneously.
for example in Estonian it will look like Kojiv Kiiev
In German Kyjiw Kiew
and so it is identical in the languages that I fixed
I believe that this option will satisfy everyone and the discussion will be over.
Returning back of the Russian name Kiev is a violation of the rules on ground
The rule on the ground cannot be violated due to the fact that in some countries they decided to simplify their lives and decided to create maps of Ukraine by transliteration from the Russian language.
and copying Russian maps and Russian geographic registries, or the conditions are such that the cartographic business is completely captured and belongs only to emigrants from Russia. It is not surprising that they will only issue cards with Russian names and this can last for a very long time. A striking example of this is Estonia, where the distribution of Ukrainian names at the level of the cartographic business and national science is completely blocked (the Estonian Institute of Slavic Studies ignores in its registers and databases the fact that the Kyiv translation appears in some European languages also ignores the translation of the real name into Chinese Jifu (written in pinyin).Previously, the Chinese translation was Jiefu, that is, it was based on the Russian name Kiev.
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Comment from Pikse
I now reverted relying on respose from the data working group above. If you are going to propose further changes to individul name variants then please do so in accoradnce with DWG guidance above.
As for showing names simultaneously (separated by space or slash, perhaps): I don't think this is generally a good idea. Alternative name variants are generally provided as values to separate keys. If this is perhaps justified for some language (e.g. variants are really of equal status or equal spread) then, as above, please propose this language by language.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
Two names is a normal practice. It will close the editorial war.
At the beginning of the discussion I gave an example of using the Estonian translation of kojivusing Kojiv 1 time is enough to have Kojiv Kiiev in name: et
There is no official ban on two transfers.
Such a ban exists only at the community level such as Russian.
There is no such ban in the Ukrainian community. -
Comment from Pikse
Compared to using "alt_name:<code>", "old_name:<code>" or alike, using "name:<code>" with multiple values (name variants) instead is unusual. This probably shouldn't be done without very good reason. I disagree that using name variant one time (or other small number of times) is enough, this in itself doesn't give name variant an equal weight with notably more common name variants. One time usage, if anything, is a minimum criterion for "alt_name".
Usage of a language specific key is rather up to community of this language. As suggested above, consult with relevant language community, e.g. Dutch-language community for "name:nl".
As far as I know there is no edit war. Unless you decide to make changes again without this being in accordance with DWG guidance above.
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Comment from KKS
Pikse check this:
Kojiv = Коїв
Kiiev = Кієв
Kõjiv = Київit's like spell this names in Ukrainian. And now check this sign
http://i.imgur.com/d255sFP.jpg
http://autoua.net/media/uploads/raznoe/89746465464.jpg
https://i.obozrevatel.com/gallery/2017/11/15/kiev.jpg?size=630x2000as you can find noone writing here "Кієв" - cuz this name simply didn't exist here.
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Comment from Pikse
KKS, this is already covered above: "Kiiev" is an exonym [1] in Estonian, not a romanization of any particular Cyrillic name variant.
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Comment from KKS
and that fact that this non'romanization spell exactly same as russian name it's simple coincidence? Don't think so = )
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Comment from Pikse
It's not exactly Russian as I already explained to you above. For some other language commons name "Kiev" may be exactly the same as romanization of Russian name, but this doesn't matter. Current common name for particular language is what it is.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
Mr Pixie should pay attention to what the DWG answer was about finding an example of using abroad (there was an example of using Estonian in Kojiv)
as well as the inadmissibility of using events in Ukraine as an argument for Kyiv Kojiv /
use of two names has been used in name for a long time therefore name et will look fine
The procedure for banning two names in name: xx does not exist at all at the level of the entire project. There are only local restrictions. Kiiv city is not included in this location.
It seems to me that it is necessary to discuss from which side Kojiv will be written to name: et, and KiievAbout two names: it is impossible to prohibit something which is not in the list of prohibited according to the rules
or in plain language: if the Criminal Code does not prohibit any action, this action is allowed. -
Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
Sorry for the distorted name typed translation in dicter.ru
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
Mr. Pikse without permission did revert
he replayed the answer text with
tomorrow morning everything will be returned
Only the Russian name KIIEV will remain in Estonian because I only found the use of Ukrainian names on the Internet 1 time.Mr Pikse started the wrong behavior, demonstrates disregard to the participants of the discussion and the words of the response from the DWG by rolling back from
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Comment from Pikse
I answered to reversion changeset where you comment is largely the same as here.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
French is returned because Kyiv is in Michelin .com
Michelin.com is a famous cartographic site in France.
Italian is returned because the Senate of Italy used Kyiv in its decision (a link to the site senato it is in our discussion
In this way, the question of name fr and name it is closed.
In the evening I will provide evidence for the rest of the languages.
According to those for which there will be little evidence --- we will discuss the option of two titles -
Comment from Pikse
No it is not closed. As per DWG guidance you were supposed to provide evidence that name variant that you propose is used *rather* than previous name variant. Individual and likely rare uses are not an evidence on this. If anything, "Kyiv" may be given as "alt_name" in French and Italian based on this evidence.
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Comment from Pikse
Sorry, at first I didn't notice you answered the same to never changeset (65547751). So I now copied my previous comment to there as well. If there is anything constructive to add at this point then lets continue discussion over there.
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Comment from freebeer
Just to add an irrelevant data point, I would not put too much faith into Auntie Beeb - pull up a bollard and let me tell you a tale.
I was listening recently to BBC radio when they had a short news report on Karl-Marx-Stadt and their newsreader came up with a complete howler. how embarrassing.
i suspect that the newsreader was promptly marched into one of the subterranean gulags of the BBC and for the next 55 minutes underwent the traditional re-education course and grueling torture, for the next news bulletin did not repeat the same error.
The same risk applies to the case here -- i bet the same american-illiterates-mangling that Karl-Marx-Stadt suffered, will be applied to Kiev, by all but the 1% who actually pay any attention to the world. I mean, if you can even distract their attention away from their phones, and ask them to speak the written word, i bet the majority of them are going to mistake it for the australian chanteuse Kylie Minogue and autocomplete it to that or at least pronounce it in a similar manner, which bears no relation to the pronunciation you likely expect.
I would expect the majority of them to be unable to speak the name of Karl-Marx-Stadt without mangling it exactly as that BBC newsreader's first failed attempt.
By the way, the BBC is the first hit i get for `Chicken Kiev' as well.
obviously the solution would be for americans to grow a familiarity with the rest of the world, but realistically there is no longer any chance of that, and things including spelling have to be dumbed down to their level, as there is too much ambiguity between written and spoken english.
there is a place for insults and pseudo-superiority in osm, but my comments are not that place.
Carry On Arguing.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
FRENCH French --- a lot of examples even have a sport
I found it looked just three pages of Google search results country France in French In other countries where FRENCH I did not search and this is Canada Switzerland Belgium
https://www.nuitsdefourviere.com/programme/terabak-de-kyiv
https://fr.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2398200.html
https://www.infoclimat.fr/observations-meteo/temps-reel/kyiv-kiev/33345.html?graphiques
https://fr-fr.roomlala.com/chambre-a-louer/UA-Ukraine/kyiv
http://www.abb.fr/References/Default.aspx?db=db/db0004/db001502.nsf&c=666f855c0d1b1d37c12575a7003c4336Italian spanish catalan dam today till 23 00
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
name:it
https://culturaestero.regione.emilia-romagna.it/it/notizie/ucraina-le-vie-dellamicizia-ravenna-kyiv
http://www.viaggiatori.net/turismoestero/Ucraina/clima/Kyiv
https://lospiegone.com/2018/10/21/sulla-strada-per-kyiv-in-viaggio-tra-le-due-anime-ucraine/
https://www.ihg.com/destinations/it/it/ukraine/kyiv-hotels
https://www.vvox.it/2018/11/27/crisi-russia-ucraina-kyiv-introduce-legge-marziale/
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyiv_Mohyla
https://www.goeuro.it/viaggi/verona/kyiv
https://www.radio.it/s/kyiv
http://www.caminoaltagliamento.org/coro-accademia-teologica-di-kyiv/
http://testicanzoni.mtv.it/testi-Oskar-Schuster_13986046/testo-Kyiv-70068209
https://books.google.it/books?id=u6lb6_voI4gC&pg=PA333&lpg=PA333&dq=kyiv&source=bl&ots=3UKLFq0Gpq&sig=nsmpkTYLF4O-vqcImkkjEbC_lTs&hl=it&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwid_d24iKrfAhUOposKHY6HBmA4MhDoATAGegQIARAB#v=onepage&q=kyiv&f=false
https://www.diretta.it/squadra/chayka-kyiv-sviatoshyn/GnGcS5fh/ -
Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
CATALAN NAME:CA
https://www.diaridegirona.cat/esports/futbol/europa-league/2018-2019/dynamo-kyiv-fc-astana-62018_01_01_2018194_20183751.html
https://www.racocatala.cat/noticia/6606/andorra-comenca-promocionar-se-preparar-lactuacio-kyiv-leurovisio-2005
https://cartesipostalsdarreu.blogspot.com/2018/08/sant-andreu-de-kyiv.html
http://ca.alumnieeni.com/ua_ct.asphttp://cadenaser.com/emisora/2018/03/07/sercat/1520439445_552419.html
http://www.cttborges.com/el-dkv-borges-vall-senfrontara-al-fortune-kyiv-ducraina-als-16ens-de-final-de-la-ettu-cup/
http://www.eurobloc.cat/?cat=1321 -
Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
Tomorrow I am at work until 18:00 GMT
I'll look for other languages at bedtime -
Comment from Pikse
Well, and what does this prove? In the same manner you can google uses for "Kiev" in these languages. Judged by Wikipedia titles, which generally aren't random, at least for wide-spread languages, you'll probably find much more results for "Kiev" in these languages.
Also the reliabilty of sources matters. You have linked to some multilingual and/or auto-generated content, that is evidence on hardly anything. Also you need to differentiate "Kiev" as city name and names of other objects like "Kyiv Post" where city name is merely part of it and where probably different conventions apply. Possibly you could start with examining major quality newspapers (e.g. for French lemonde.fr uses "Kiev" for city). Then you should probably look for print atlases and reliable reference works.
But it's hard to know all this without being native speaker or otherwise very well familiar with language in question. I wouldn't try to judge name usage in language that I don't know well enough and I believe you shouldn't either. In case of French name usage you should probably let French-speaking community examine that. Also, French Wikipedia talk page has suggestion to use "Kyiv", but Francophones over there seem quite certain that the city is commonly known as "Kiev" in their language.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
read the answer from dwg
your requirements are not there
I provided the necessary number of links
I remind you: you are not a map
you can not deny kyiv because "I don’t like or I don’t care how many links you will find"
you can not ban Kyiv by inventing absurd requirements
Read your full text in this discussion.;
you only had a criticism of name: nl and two more languages such as Wikipedia do not have any information about KyivMy position is this: I have provided the right amount on many topics of use and you have no reason to ban
Tomorrow I will provide the rest of the languages or if I do not find the rest, based on the situation, the book will be only Russian or two at the same time
I remind you: you have not yet introduced me to the international rule for the communities of all countries of the planet Earth, which prohibits two names, now there is only your desire without evidence of rightness.
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Comment from Pikse
I'm sorry, but you are here the only one constantly deceiving by trying to invent requrements (i.e. "necessary number of links", whatever it is). I quote DWG response above: "find some evidence _in Estonian_ of Kyiv being used rather than Kiev". The situation with Latin-script languages other than Estonian is obviously no different. Links above in no way show that Kyiv is used *rather* than Kiev. Links above (or at least some of them) only show that Kyiv is also used.
I repat: noone suggested that two names as value of one key (if you still specifically suggest that) is prohibited. Neither have you introduced us to agreement about that. As this is unusual then this probably should be agreed upon by language community in question. I don't see why that kind of solution should be up to you to decide while the same as with changes here you are not familiar with conventions of languages in question.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/489126766
street with two controversial names
Річкова and Н Сосніної
note https://translate.google.es/?hl=uk#view=home&op=translate&sl=auto&tl=en&text=%D0%A3%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0%20%D1%81%D0%BE%20%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%BC%20%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%BC.%20%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%84%D0%B8%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B5%20%D0%B2%20%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%85%20%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B0%20%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%B7%D1%83%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D1%8F%20%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%BE%20%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BC.%20%D0%94%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%2C%20%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%20%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%B9%20%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%86%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%BE%D0%BC%20%2C%20%D0%91%D0%A2%D0%98%2C%20%D0%93%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%A0%D0%B5%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%20%D0%A3%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%86%20%D0%93%D0%BE%D1%81%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%8F%20%22%D0%93%D0%BE%D1%81%20%D0%98%D0%BD%D1%84%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%A1%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BC%D1%8B%22%20%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%B7%D1%83%D1%8E%D1%82%202-%D0%BE%D0%B5%20%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5..Street with a controversial name. Recorded in the documents of the village council is used only by the village council.(village council =alevvald , vald in Estonia ) StateLandcadastre, payment of social benefits, BTI (=Bureau of Technical Land Inventory)
, State Register of Streets State Register Enterprises StateInformSistems uses the second namethe street has at the same time two official streets with the same authority status
Houses have two official street names at the same time.The Migration Service of Ukraine gave people a passport of a citizen of Ukraine and on 11 pages they wrote that a person lives on the street with the name number 1
when a resident of the village goes with this passport in the village council = alevvald, vald in Estonia, the emu issue two certificates of family composition. Because the local authority does not know what name is needed at the moment
when a person goes to the local -
Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
You did not expect that there will be some examples from Kyiv
After getting acquainted with Kyiv, you just don’t want to admit that Kyiv is a normal translation.
The peculiarity of our project is ignoring the databases of laws of international law
Take for example the mapping of disputed territories: there is written de facto political status
For example, Kosovo, its independence from Serbia will be taken very little, but in our project it is an independent state
Also here: there is confirmation of the use of the Ukrainian name and it is provided to you. On the situation in Kosovo, I showed that the majority opinion our project allows to ignore in order to observe on ground
Required miser granted
I see our discussion ending in the spring when, after quiet winter evenings, spring will come which will bring corrective lifestyle (for example, regular girls in nature, farm work)
I remind you: there is no ban on Kyiv in the DWG textyou only have an argument I don't want
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
Kyiv in alt name will not be at all in Italian and French and Catalan
Forget about it --- the conversation about it is already finished, there is no longer anything to discuss
, we can make two names Kyiv Kyiv --- a good compromise -
Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
kYIV kIEV TWO NAMES
Relations (2)
Nodes (2)
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