откат названий городов
Closed over 4 years ago by LLlypuk82
Hello. May I know the reason why you are reverting names?
Hello. Yes, of course. According Закон Республики Беларусь от 16.11.2010 №190-З "О наименованиях географических объектов" (http://pravo.newsby.org/belarus/zakon0/z326.htm) geonames in Belarus are assigned and stored in two languages (belorussian and russian)
Quote: "Статья 17. Язык наименований географических объектов
1. В Республике Беларусь наименования географическим объектам присваиваются на белорусском языке, с которого способом транслитерации передаются на русский язык. Наименование географического объекта подлежит государственному учету на белорусском и русском языках."
But most of population (minimum is 75%) uses Russian everyday (i.e. they think in Russian, write in Russian, speak in Russian)
That's why default language for 'name=' is Russian.
If I follow your logic, then I should change by default each country/region/village where the majority of the population speaks another language than the one on the roadsigns (for example, I should put Polish in Eastern Lithuania, Russian in Eastern Latvia, Hungarian in Southern Slovakia and to Arabic in some parts of France) and so on. Do you imagine the enormous confusion?
Please note the community has decided to change the rule due to numerous complaints regarding the enormous confusion that Russian names as main ones was bringing to OSM users and OSM-based app users (including Russian-speaking tourists!).
Anyway, the default OSM policy clearly states the names must appear *as they are on-spot* ("ground rule"). If you have ever visited Belarus, you may have noticed that all village, town, city, lake, river, monument names are in Belarusian. By reverting main names to Russian, you are favorizing confusion even among Russian-speaking tourists!
Nobody is deleting totally the Russian names, we are just making sure that Russian tourists see both the Russian and the Belarusian names in their apps, for instance. Just as in Crimea they are now in Russian, in Belarus they are in Belarusian.
Looking forward for your cooperation.
P.S.: Please note even Russian maps Yandex use Belarusian names as the main ones.
Are you sure about Yandex? There is a screenshot https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/sanik82/album/419689/view/1443769
You use incorrect analogies. Not simply "the majority of the population speaks another language than the one on the road signs", but majority of the citizens of the Belarus.
As soon as I am in front of a computer I will post a screenshot of Yandex (I don't know how to post it over here).
Anyway my point is: OSM is not about politics or personal language preference, but about reflecting the reality and so far we were not doing that in Belarus. I drive there every two weeks, and no matter which language I use on my phone I always see the Russian name below. When I use Russian, I see only the Russian name and no other!. Imagine a tourist from Russia getting confused (that was a perfect example provided by another user) by entirely different names and not being able to see the Belarusian name on his app (Октябрская instead of Кастрычнiцкая, Берёзовая Роща instead of Бярозавы Гай, lots of places with the word "Большой" instead of "Вялiкi "), etc. I am not even mentioning tourists that don't read cyrillic nor speak Russian/Belarusian! Try it, because quite a couple of my ethnic Russian friends (no matter if they are from Lithuania, Latvia, Belarus, Ukraine or Russia) have complained to me personally about all the above each time they had to go to Belarus and used OSM and OSM-based apps. Otherwise I wouldn't highlight this issue and take from my personal time to make such an enormous work...
LLlypuk82 OSM is not about language problems of biggest part of country population, it is about reflecting geographical objects in geographical data base. According to law you cited, geographical names assigned in Belarusian, then they are transliterated to Russian because this is the second national language. So Belarusian is the number one in geographical names. And all signs, (topographical, public transport) etc are written in Belarusian with little amount of exceptions.
Of course, if object signed in Russian, it should be named in Russian in OSM. For all other cases it should be named in Belarusian.
OSM is a global project and all local arrangements are not legitimate if they are contrary to main OSM rules.
Agreed. "name" tag is for name as it written on sign. name:ru and name:by could be filled too. To let users choose what name they want to read. Same value inside name and name:by is ok. First tolds us what should we expect to see and second in 100% times in Belarusian.
Screenshots from what I see from my computer on Yandex:
- In English: https://plus.google.com/u/1/photos/116538206482963449572/album/6463292506880436433/6463292504796189858?authkey=CPHviqDkqcGDfw
- In Russian: https://plus.google.com/u/1/photos/116538206482963449572/album/6463292506880436433/6463292506893818850?authkey=CPHviqDkqcGDfw
As you can see, even Yandex writes those names in Belarusian as main ones. And they are Russian!
Напишу по-Английски ))
@Jay May, thank you for highlighting this in pm. I will reply later.
@LLlypuk82: please understand that this is not against Russian language ))) We have to leave the Russian name, but only in the name:ru tag (unless it appears in Russian on-spot, like for instance Белоруснефть, Газпромнефть, etc.).
Nothing to add to what Jay May, Ambush and mOlind wrote - they explained everything very well. Thank you for cooperation.
For example Google Maps https://i.imgur.com/V2SFlRN.png use the names of cities, villages and etc in Belarusian language and łacinka. Google have many users on the world, but all ok for tourists and the population of the country
@Jay May, if you visit Belarus and ask people for directions, you will hardly get a reply in Belarussian language anywhere. That it the reality of our countly and the name tag must reflect that realy. If somebody wants to have names displayed in Belarussian they are free to use the name:be tag which is available for all or almost all places in our contry.
Moreover introducing such global changes in our country without prior negociation with us is a sign of disrespect.
The main argument is the signs of the names of cities and towns that the driver sees. Seen by the driver, should be in the name. The remaining arguments (the internal language policy of the government, the language of communication of local residents) is for other mapping projects.
If the Russian language in name is due to the fact that someone so wants or where something is written down that is a clear violation of the main concept of the project.
I propose to collect photographs of the signs of the names of cities and towns at the entrance and write in DWG /
The meaning of the complaint. Information in the name / names of settlements / contradicts the information "on-ground".
The Belarusian community should put information from signage. The desires of a group of people who contradict the principle of "on-ground" --- should be ignored.
The "group of people who contradict the principle of "on-ground"" signs comprize 74% of the pupulation of the country. By introducting this change you would abuse the primary users of OSM Belarus - the citizens of the country.
You are plotting with official statistics. 74 percent are the urban population. The rural provincial population - the situation on the contrary - there is approximately the same figure Belarusian-speaking population. So we have parity. Or, in plain language, 50 percent of both languages comes out. Your argument is inappropriate. Read the rules that define the main concept of the project.
Rules created for everyone. All this population throughout the country: the population of the villages, towns, the capital and tourists. All/listed me/see other than in name. You make the Belarusian community to create the map, the value of which is no. A tourist from another country will search "Magìleu" on the sign in reality "Mogilev".
One of the rules of the project at contentious issues need to take into account the opinion of all. A significant number of wants to see in the name of Belarusian. Because exit is used in the name of the two languages. Such a bilingual name has a normal rendering.
For example: in Northwestern China, where the live Chinese Kirgiz, have long been used bilingualism.
I concluded that to defeat the Russian lobby is only possible by emphasize DWG. You should ask the DWG through photos, videos, take a decision that consolidate Belarusian/bilingualism/name Mass complaints foreign cartographers, which tourists will provide a photo. When the complaint will need to emphasize that some cartographers/in some areas/have behavior as samoderžavcì, making decisions that are contrary to the concept of the project "on ground". Forcing all violate the concept of the project, pushing his personal vision in controversial issues.I'm in a personal correspondence will contact the participants in the discussion/who for the Belarusian language/so they collected photos, where signs of the Belarusian language and written complaints to the International DWG with the content, which I described earlier in the text.
@Poliakoff Mykhailo, can you provide any proves of your statement that both language are used 50/50? Have you ever been in our country at all? I myself come from a village and can assure you that no one is speaking Belarusian there, those 26% are mostly located in big cities. I'm just wondering why would a foregn person have a right to force us to use the language which the majory of us does not speak!? You are suggesting to sacrifice millions of local people to a couple of thousands or even hundreds of foregn tourists.
In the project's argument is banners/signs/names of settlements. The argument about who what morvoû talks is not the main one. Map of what is done for turitìv. With the tourist will communicate the convenient to him. You do not mind that the plaques with the names of Belarusian. So then if you respect the rules of the project, we must accept that the Belarusian in name/Sorry but I do not understand. You kind of don't mind placards of the Belarusian language, and further express the position that is contrary to the concept of the project. I.e. you exhibit disrespect for rules and propose further to the members community to violate the rules and the concept of the project. That is, it turns out that all must obey the rules and Belarus is the exception because it has the right to ignore rules
Explain why you are against the two languages in the names of settlements? What you personally prevents the emergence at the Russian and Belarusian languages? Then make a case for war edits. Moreover, according to the legislation of your country is officially bilingual. This is also a strong argument for my compromised position.
Your suggestion to have two names in one one tag is out of this topic. We are now talking about replacement of russian names by belarusian ones.
The number of local people using the map for business and leisure is by far bigger than the number of foreign tourists and regardless of what is written on signs the majory of local people use Russian and can hardly speak Belarusian.
yaugenka: one more time: Ground Truth rule is not about local traditions and preferences, it's about Ground Truth. And OSM is not a local Belarusian project. It's world wide. So you can't sacrifice billions of planet Earth people to a couple of millions citizens of one little country.
@ambush, it is the question of number of users, not population.
Yaugenka care less on rules and on the arguments. To him, the main thing that the Russian language everywhere won the Belarusian language. The victory should be by humiliation, discrimination of the Belarusian language. His pattern of behavior in these discussions it confirms absolutely.
@Poliakoff Mykhailo, if you visit Belarus and talk to people you will hardly find anyone talking against the Belarusian language and me is not an exception. You guys are giving favor to foreign tourist, whereas I defent the interest of local people nation-wide, not just some minority.
I think yaugenka just misses main point. There is no negative effect for russian speaking users. Because most applications let users to change language. Open openstreetmap.by and check it yourself. There is no single reason to keep russian instead belarussian in name tag. Only because it's easier to read for someone. Because readability is solved on the application side, when users select it's language. Galileo, maps.me, OsmAnd allow user to change language. Once you select russian you'll see everything in russian. Name tag is to keep name as it used on-ground. Name:* for translations. That's it. We don't need to put translation into name tag only because it's rendered on osm.org. Most users will see language they need in applications they use.
Guys, according to what we discussed here and in personal mail I've reverted this reverting changeset. For me it's a very strange situation to discuss should we follow main OSM rules for Belarus or not. I want to propose to ask DWG to help us if we can't find satisfying decision.
OK. What will you propose for situation when road signs have bilingual (or more) inscriptions?
- Village, town and city names: name:* in Belarusian only.
- Street signs: this is the tricky part. In Minsk or Brest, the situation is clear (official street signs are all in Belarusian). However, there are some towns or villages without any official street signs, just the name on the street (usually in Russian) on private houses (or buildings). In this case, except for Minsk and any city where official street signs are in Belarusian, bilingualism in name:* would be a good solution if we are not sure (without forgetting to fill name:be and name:ru). In order to be readable, we could write it like this: BY name - RUS name (ex.: вулiца Савецкач - улица Совецкая)
- Transportation-related infrastructure names: most of them are in Belarusian. Bus stops, metro stations, train stations should have the Belarusian name in name:*. If they are in Russian, then the name:* tag should be in Russian
- Monuments: they are always signed in Belarusian (ex.: Брэсцкая крэпасць), and so they should be on OSM. Unless we are talking about some communist monuments (you know, those "слава героям"). I think it makes no sense to change the name=* tag.
- Commercial names: leave as it is. Белоруснефть, Родны Кут, U Tadeusza, Кинотеатр Мир, etc.) whatever the language and the alphabet.
That was my proposition from the very beginning when I started the discussion a couple of months ago.
Can anyone tell the purpose of the name tag in general? is it just for putting sign info into it and remain them whenever signs get changed?
The "name=*" tag in general is to show what is written on the road, street or shop signs, whatever it is.
I agree with Jay May. And I want to say that if someone see the name at the road sign in Russian, he can ask local authorities to fix it according to cited law.
What are your aguments for renaming according to the on-ground rule except for "just because it is common convention"?
Скажыце калі ласка, калі вы рэгістраваліся ў дадзеным праекце вы гатовыя былі паважаць правілы праекта падабаюцца ці не падабаюцца яны вам? Тым у што ваша пытанне з'яўляецца абсурдным. Вы розумиеть Першае, што ваша пазіцыя пройгрышная і вы проста спрабуеце цягнуць час. Ці чакаеце, што мы вам напішам хамства. І будзе падстава заблакаваць нас. Вы дыскусію рухаеце ў пералівання з пустога ў парожняе і словоблуд. Ужо даўно выслуханыя ўсе бакі канфлікту. Аргументы нашай пазіцыі схілілі шалі вагаў у бок беларускай мовы. Пара брацца да заменьі мовы. Уласна чым я і займаюся ў дадзены момант. Дзякуй усім за дыскусію. / Tell me please, when you are registered in this project you are ready to respect the rules of the project like, do not you like them? Tom what your question is absurd. You understand that your position is losing and you're just trying to take time. Or expect you to write rudeness to you. And there will be a reason to block us. You are discussing the process of transfusion from the empty to the empty. All sides of the conflict have long been listened to. The arguments of our position inclined the weight of the weights to the Belarusian language. Already take time to replace the language. Actually what I am doing at the moment. Thank you all for the discussion.
I stop any communication with you because are not following the conversation and are making provoking comments.
@Jay May, @Ambush, @mOlind, @Григорий Ильин, @Jaŭhien,
Here are our main arguments against the change.
1. There are no official up-to-date printed maps, no official internet resources (http://map.nca.by/, http://gismap.by/) available in the Belarusian language. Almost all official documents like orders, decrees, acts etc. are using geographic names in Russian. Local public service vehicle tickets are in Russian also. The change will make verification of map date against official sources almost impossible.
2. According to local convention, addressing is based on russian names in "name" and "addr" tags. The change will also require renaming all "addr" tags. Moreover there are a lot of objects which are not translated into Belarusian yet and hence it will break addressing to those locations at all.
3. The local convention for using Russian language in the "name" tag exists from the very beginning of the osm project and there are many osm-based project which expect Russian name in that tag and hence those projects will stop working and will need to be rebuild.
4. Both languages are considered official in the country and on-the-ground signs can officially be in Belarusian, Russian or both at the same time. Blind following of the on-the-ground rule will lead to chaos - when some names are in Belarusian and other ones are in Russian or both.
5. According to official statistics, 74% of the population of the country consider Russian their native language. Many of those cannot even speak Belarusian. Since openstreetmap.org and all the key editors display names from the non-localized "name" tag, the change will cause reading and editing difficulties to the majority of the project contributors.
Do you still insist on the change?
My name is Георгий, not Григорий )))) Moreover, I see no provocation from Poliakoff Mykhailo, just emotions. Anyway, guys, please don't get personal (both yaugenka and Mykhailo). Let's keep this discussion calm and constructive.
About your arguments:
1) This doesn't change the fact that the toponymic signs are displayed in Belarusian and putting that info in Russian as a main language only creates confusion. Moreover, guys! Please! Don't think only of Russian-speaking Belarusian people! Think about people like Ambush and me who use their phones in Russian, and arriving on-spot they can see only the toponymic names in Russian on their phones, but can't see the name that appears in front of themselves! I've got family and friends coming to see me from Russia and they get confused each time because of the name differences, so they switch to Yandex or to Google to be sure!
I am not sure if I understood correctly what you mean by "Local public service vehicle tickets", but anyway, if we keep the Russian name in name:ru, the place will always be found. Moreover, no one talked about changing the administration-related names (as far as I know, those are always in Russian)
2 and 3 and 4 (they are closely related). The local convention was wrong from the very beginning, because it was against OSM's main rules regarding names ("in disputed areas, the name that must appear is the one on the sign".Anyway, the address issue you are highlighting is a good one as we have been discussing between ourselves for a long time on this topic ))))
A blind following of the initial local convention is exactly what is leading to chaos. I think Jay May made the most fair proposal: street signs bilingual (1st BY, 2nd RU - we should have a look how they do it in Brussels), other toponymic names in Belarusian, and commercial names (I will add "Administrational" if everyone confirms me this info) in Russian.
5. Sorry to say that, but of all the topics you mentioned, this is the less relevant. I am Russian myself and each time I use my OSM-based maps, it freaks me out to see the name I see on my screen is different from the one I see in front of myself. Moreover, we must remember why we are here. OSM is not an ethnographical nor a linguistic project. Its aim is to show the ground reality as accurately as possible, and to make people's lives easier.
I don't see what kind of reading and editing dificulties it may cause. Nowadays, all computers give the possibility to switch from language to language, from alphabet to alphabet. Until now, people were not able to see the Belarusian names at all as not all phones propose this language, and no one is going to switch their phone to Belarusian just to see the toponymic name. Some people even see it as a discrimination of the Belarusian language in favour of Russian. I personally see it as... making life more difficult for Russian-speakers while trying to save Russian language in Belarus! You don't need to try to save anything - Belarus is the only country from the former USSR where the use of Russian has increased, so you will have lots of users like me using OSM apps in Russian and happy to see the original name below the Russian one ))))
I am looking forward for your cooperation. If you see that during editing, someone removed the "name=ru" tag or that someone unnecessarily changes the name=* tag, please highlight is. The aim of our group, I repeat it, is not to "kick out Russian out of Belarus", but to reflect the reality: Russian where there is a Russian sign, Belarusian where there is a Belarusian sign, English where there is an English sign, etc. )))))
Thank you all for your attention! Спасибо всем за внимание )))))
@Георгий Ильин, first let me apologies for the mistyped name. Secondly, let me clarify the points.
Whatever language you select in your settings you will still get the name from "name" tag displayed on http://www.openstreetmap.org and in editors. I think there is no need to explain that majory of map data is taken from official sources, not from on-the-ground signs. No one is going to visit every street and house to map it. For you it is just place names which make a confusion, for us it is great amount of data which must be compared to official source. In Brussels you can easily find a printed map and other official resource on both languages. In our country we have them in Russian only, no choice. So we first map them in Russian and then translate them into Belarusian. That was the main reason for this local convention. Road signs is the only thing which falls out of this rule. BTY by "local public service vehicle tickets" I meant "railway and bus ticketes" which are printed in Russian only.
OSM is map data first of all which is used by other applications. And the other applications must decide which languange to display data in. We do our best to translate data into Belarusian but making it the default would mean throughing stones into our own glass house ("пилить сук на котором сидишь").
I stop any communication with you because are not following the conversation and are making provoking comments.
@Jay May, @Ambush, @mOlind, @Григорий Ильин, @Jaŭhien, )
Согласно сложившейся практики ведения дискуссии по очень спорным вопросам в проекте коментарии «я с вами не буду вести диалог …...» не допустимы Вам повезло что дискуссия ведется не на украиском или русском сообществе — там за такое бан однозначно. . Держите себя сдержанно и у в уважительном тоне к учасникаам дискуссии даже если они вам неприятны или высказывают аргументы (позиции , которые вам органично неприятны .
По поводу коментария Георгий Ильин
С указанной проблемой столкнулось аналогичное нашему сообщество гугл карт но это не помешало достойно ее решить . Если нашлись источники решить в достойном качестве эту проьблему в гугл картах то чем сообщество Openstreetmap хуже? Вы посмотрие на карту Белоруссии там на белорусском . Сколько переведено озер . Тем более после закрытия проекта Гугл многие пришли к нам . Тем более если запустится процесс с белорусским вы увидите сколько новой свежей крови вольется в проект. Упертостью с русским языком вы ---- я провожу аналогию ------ копируете знакомый нам период семидесятых годов в СССР под названием в историографии как застой. А застой это регресс то есть исщезновение результатов развития. Малая активность на форуме — признак застоя в сообществе Белорусссии.
1/ Начем с того что указанные вами источники / два сайта / не предоставили лицензии на использовании в проекте, поэтому вопрос о их использовании закрыт . Даже если вы чтото и берете от туда то это незаконнно поэтому не может быть использовано как аргумент. Мы не удаляем русский из базы данных а просто на карте будет белорусский язык. Желающие сверить билет на русском одной клавишей меняют язык. Я пользовался навигаторами в некоторых ставил китайский язык и французский для Украины как эксперимент. А например приедет англоязычный ему что белорусский чт орусский язык все равно. Почему вы думает е только о русскоязычных туристах. Разве не русскоязычные туристы - это туристы третьего сорта как в Нацисткой Германии нации унтерменш и оберменш.
2/Проблема руссификации на всегоссударственном уровне знакома Украине . Ее плоды мы собираем и теперь. Это «искуственные режущие слух переводы». Но как вы видите украинизации это не стало помехой. С тегами addr: проблемы нет вообще. Украина пережила декоммунизацию улиц и населенных пунктов . По поводу улиц в addr:street есть способ переименовать за один раз все обьекты улицы .В Украине он обкатан , нажимаешь кнопкой мыши на улицу и комбинация Сtrl +F ……. Подробнее он описан на форуме.
3/Предметом нашего спор и есть некоторые пункты этого Договора (Свода Правил ). Как человек с мышлением юриста спрошу а в каком пункте Договора (Свода Правил ) или его составляющих частей , что написано что в таком виде он принят навсегда с запретом на изменение когда либо в будущем некоторых разделов или его отменение целиком .
4/Этот аргумент не относисится никак к теме дискуссии . Мы обсуждаем единый стандарт для каждой категории обьектов отдельно улицы населенные пункты ….. и тд. В отдельном порядке. Украина и сейчас имеет большое количество нанесенных обьектов на русском как школы и прочее и такие обьекты встречаются не только в общепринятых русскоязычных регионах Юга и Востока Украины. При любой реформе есть переходный период . Ничего не делать всвязи с боязнью переходного периода и собственно реформ это не рационально.
ВЫДЕЛИЛ СПЕЦИАЛЬНО Яугенка
я вам уже в этой дискуссии указал , что Вы подтасовуете данные статистики . Используя этот метод Вы в первую очередь дискредитируете себя .
Я с 6 лет до окончания школы бывал в Белоруссии и покупал детские книги на белорусском языке — при СССР такие можна было купить даже райцентре в книжном магазине поэтому белорусский я понимаю с детства. Найти официальную мне информацию на белорусском легко.
Перестаньте использовать грязные приёмы .
@Mykhailo, you already can be banned for changing the data and open calls to continue changing the data while the discussion is still going on.
The above mentioned official internet resource can freely be used for validation. Can you name any alternatives in the Belarusian language?
(you already can be banned for changing the data and open calls to continue changing the data while the discussion is still going on.)- продублируйте на русском , агнлийский язык для меня совсем чужой , а в переводе Гугл и Майкрософт выходит бред та как они плохо работают с омонимами и многозначностью. Официальным источником названий поселков есть справочник Назвы населеных пунктаў Рэспублікі Беларусь: Магілёўская вобласць: нарматыўны даведнік / І. А. Гапоненка і інш.; пад рэд. В. П. Лемцюговай. — Мн.: Тэхналогія, 2007. — 406 с. ISBN 978-985-458-159-0 как видите он на белорусском языке. Так что "вся официальная информация на русском" не соотвествует действительности .
Информацию о ликвидированных поселках можна узнать у местных властей или у википедии . Пример поселок в Хоцімском раёне Міхайлаўскі
Правила проекта таковы что его не интересует где брать данные .
Прочитайте все обсуждение https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=5257
Нет лицензии значит нельзя. Проект построен на посещениии местности и собирании информации а не на копировании с других баз данных так как там не гарантируется проверяемость информации и своевременность обновления. А возьмите Северную Корею , ее ж как-то картографируют несмотря на закрытость полную и обособленность госсударства. Обращайтесь с письмом в кадастр звоните просите - но пока не разрешит это запрещено . Та как вы не можете гарантировать что на форум не обратится владелец информации с просьбой удалить . О административных границах в населенных пунктах можно узнать попросивши у местных органах власти в отделе городостроения и архитектуры. Хотя учитывая законодательство которое не поддерживает открытость и свободный доступ к информации - я понимаю как будет сложно.
Насколько я знаю до сих пор к примеру сельскому совету запрещено по официальным запросам предоставлять информацию о план-схеме улиц . Информпция о генеральном плане улиц у вас до сих пор признана информацией с ограниченным доступом. С опыта Украины вы должны понимать что кадастровая карта это что то и кем то нарисованное. Вы не можете гарантировать что кто-то (работник А) правильно и добросовестно перенес на карту Информацию Б .
Ведь например вместо кривой он легко мог нарисовать прямую линию с мыслей --- Никто не будет докапываться или проверять.
Перед тем как заниматься рисованием по кадастру надо вникнуть а чт о именно они рисуют и на основе чего. В Украине я изучал вопрос кадастра /работает родственница / и сделал вывод что информация от местного правительства которое управляет населенным пунктом это самый правильный выход тем более в калл-центре кадастра сказали если вам нужны границы обращайтесь в органы местной власти . На карте у нас немного другая информация. Границы районов и областей (провинций ) нарисованы. С течением времени когда информация станет доступна можна будет кое-где и поправить.
И даже если кадастр на русском - поиск карты по названию
Важно : работает со всеми языками стандарта международной кодировки используемой в проекте name:xx
или открывши карту напрямую по координатам. И ответьте на вопрос.Вы просматривали 2 поселка Хоцімскаго раёна. Чтоб высказать замечания или предложения в парвках . И почему проигнорировали это сообщение и ничего не написали.
1. you was writing in Enlish very well previously, so the statement that you don't understand English is a cheat.
2. the statement that official sources cannot be relied on is absolutely illogical. The same thing about replying on wikipedia.
3. it is a shame to here from an attorney that it is prohibited by a license to look at data which is published by govenment in the internet.
4. the main bulk of data including street name and administrative boundaries is taken from maps which can be copied freely. Almost all data that you currently see on OSM Belarus was mapped from Russian sources and then translated to Belarusian by ourselves or looking into the small number of Belarusian publications we have.
You are mainly suggesting to lock us out of key sources and start going to local authoriies begging to privide us data in Belarusian, rebuilds already existing apps to use different tags and (the main point of yours) make us all speak Belarusian regardless of whether we want it or not.
> The local convention for using Russian language in the "name" tag exists from the very beginning of the osm project...
yaugenka, does OSM wiki contain this convention?
Data Working Group
While most of you here provide convincing arguments in favour of name:be->name, yaugenka is correct in pointing out name:be tags don't even cover some areas. Belarusian OSM community has long wanted/struggled to do the switch, but it would leave a map in disarray and possibly introduce challenges for data users. Following Ground Truth principles is made difficult when two languages are used for addressing/naming interchangeably and with little oversight from the authorities.
@4004: all transition periods have their own issues and there is no problem without any solution ;) Poliakoff Mykhailo seems to know a lot on a similar case: neighboring Ukraine. Anyway, on such technical details I prefer reading your propositions because I'm not as good as you guys yet. But some users (Ambush, etc.) have been on OSM for so many years that I'm confident they will find solutions to the potential issues mentioned above regarding the addr tags. If a name appears only in Russian on OSM, usually the Belarusian equivalent can be found on wikipedia, and can be checked with other sources. If the appropriate Belarusian name is not found for some locations even after verification, I would suggest to leave those names as they already appear.
And there is not a problem if there will be different languages in name (for objects which haven't name:be filled) because whole OSM name's on the planet are in different languages. If it just haven't any Belarusian alternative, it'll be left in Russian.
Здесь говорится о соглашении 2009 года:
You must understand that the further delay matters more complicated will be the solution. Take the similar project of Google, there is a fairly well is in difficulties, you're specifying, the Belarusian version of the map. And done it all for the year and a half: Belarusian street caused caused by translations of objects of nature and water. The same all of the translations are not from the ceiling the same appeared. So there is something all somewhere in your country. When Google launched the Belarusian there activity in Belarusian was high, the project vlilosâ a fresh lot of blood. Wood started the street on the map, replaced with the Belarusian language. I even as a member of Google was surprised by the interest to give the Belarusian. Write for example, that it is on the contrary will give fresh blood in your project. After all, making the conclusion of Forum activity, life in it delicately put it in "hibernation of the bear ".
@Mykhailo, you are again trying to mislead the discussion. The main argument in defence of this change is that our local convention contradicts the common rule of the on-the-ground signs.
If we start following the common rule it will not be a Belarusian map. It will be a mixture of Belarusian and Russian names. Yes, all settlement names will be in Belarusian because there are enough official publications listing them, but many lower level objects like streets, suburbs, squares, small lakes and rivers, commercial areas etc. will be in Russian because they may have signs in Russian or may have no signs at all and are mapped from Russian sources.
Is it really worth the changes required in the map data and existing application as well as the difficulties in data validation the osm contributors will face?
> Здесь говорится о соглашении 2009 года...
LLlypuk82, thank you very much for it.
> in disputed areas, the name that must appear is the one on the sign
See also [http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes]
Belarus is the stable country. There is a government. There are two official languages. The local community can use any language or use an own convention for "name" tags. There is so local convention.
> What will you propose for situation when road signs have bilingual (or more) inscriptions?
name=<any name from local convention>
inscription=<real text from sign>
Data Working Group
A disputed area it is not necessarily an area where there is an ongoing war or that is politically unstable.
A disputed area in OSM is also an area where not everyone agrees on the language that should be displayed, and it is the case of Belarus. It is also the case of some regions in stable countries (ex.: Belgium, a country I know very well).
Anyway, the convention showed above (in Russian-only) is still a contradiction of OSM's main rule regarding names, which was cited a couple of times already. (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names
"name User defined Node Way Area The common default name. (Note: For disputed areas, please use the name as displayed on, e.g., street signs for the name tag. Put all alternatives into either localized name tags (e.g., name:tr/name:el) or the variants (e.g., loc_name/old_name/alt_name). Thank you.)"
That is the main rule, and any local agreement that does not abide by the main rule is null and void. This is how it works in law and in every single domain.
In Belarus, as you can see in this long discussion, a majority of people disagree with this "convention" and so does both the Belarusian law *and* the OSM main rule. I'm afraid this convention needs to be change as it infringes the main name rule. Belarus *is* and has *always* been a linguistically disputed area, so following that, the name that must appear is the one on the sign, no matter the language.And then, the matter will be resolved.
We already proposed our solutions on this matter. If some unpredictable issues arise, solutions will be found.
Thank you for your attention
Wow guys, this discussion is really active :D As I'm not getting the notifications on my email, I am always amazed when I enter this thread.
Let us be clear once again (sorry if I repeat what was written a couple of times):
a) As a couple of us pointed out, the agreement shown above violates the main rule. Thus, from the very beginning the initial agreement is null and void. Just as in law.
b) Moreover, the agreement (as it was pointed out by 2 users) violates the Belarusian law. Do we want OSM to get forbidden in Belarus? I don't because I use it while being there, and several apps do.
c) Our aim is to show the reality on-spot. Not to be a sort of Belarusian Jeanne d'Arc and "kick out Russian(s) out of Belarus". (like she said about "kicking out Englishmen from France") :D And as someone wrote before (I think it was Georgij or perhaps myself?), those who are afraid that Belarusization (in reality "Realisticallyzation :D") will make the Russian language die in Belarus have nothing to be afraid about:
1) Nobody wants to erase the Russian names totally. And we do all agree on that. The Russian toponyms will be shown anyway for those who use those OSM-based apps in Russian, but along with the original name appearing on-spot.
2) Belarus is the only former USSR country where the use of Russian has increased. That is a matter of fact. However, all toponyms are in Belarusian and neither Шурик82, neither Jaugenka, neither Georgij, neithe Vladimir, neither 4004, neither Ambush, neither Mykhailo, neither mOlind and neither I will change that, whatever is our perception on the Belarusian and Russian languages. The only one who can change that is Mr.Alexander Lukashenka, and I think it is the last thing he worries about despite his love for Russian language.
We need to rely on facts. That is why we are Openstreetmap: to highlight facts, make them visible to everyone and thus help people around the world.And that is our strength over our competitors like Google or Yandex.
Otherwise, taking our time (for which nobody pays us) to improve OSM is useless because we are doing only a half-good job, whether we are pro-change or anti-change.
Any issues will be resolved. From my professional history I know how transitions are difficult, but I also know that every issue has its own solution(s).
Yes )))) We are active ))) But I find it is not fair that 2 people are slowing the whole process while we had been discussing these matters for months and we had agreed on making the Belarus map realistic. To me they can be helpful on the technical part, but overall the decision has been made and it is compliant with the OSM main rule and with the Belarusian laws.So the Russian version of the convention must be changed to make it compliant and as I told you - Belarus is a disputed area. So the ground rule automatically applies even without discussion.
A result of our discussion is checking for durability of основообразующего principle of project of on ground/ Ancient римляны to our era created wisdom integrity is stopped up in that . A law is severe, but it is a law. In the original of dura lex sed lex. On the observance of rules all is built . If governed /laws stop / to be observed it results in anarchy and destruction. In fact lately horrors of international wars of редагирований more less became silent . Accepting a not faithful decision we can again dip a project in the ocean depth of wars of редагирований . So during globalization about the results of our discussion it will know to all associations. Associations that buried the ax of war of corrections can dig out him . We with you persons of ripe years. When we come on work the rules of behavior, of instruction of actions are told us in one or another situations, time when we must leave or come on work . To us these rules not always are pleasant, but we observe, them in fact we do not want to lose work or have financial approvals as privation of earnings. Religious people observe or try a vault governed described in religious treatises and books because are afraid that they will be punished by God at each it.
In understanding of man with the legal thinking the that vault of rules of "legal" force / of force of action/ does not have from the moment of his acceptance . In connection with that his points violate on ground. He from the moment of acceptance cheapened itself on 100 percents and deserved no respect. In him there is no компромиса aside соблюдениия on ground. His acceptance underlaid a time, bomb that wound or late will explode and consequences will be negative. That is why than before Vault of Rules in form 2009 will become history, that no longer needs to be repeated подчеркую to nobody so much the better for existence of this project and for disentangling of consequences in Belorussia.This problem as spring that, than squeeze longer - the stronger / badly/ there will be a return
>Belarus is the only former USSR country where the use of Russian has increased. That is a matter of fact. However, all toponyms are in Belarusian
This is (perhaps sadly) not always the case. If you transit/travel through Belarus you might get the impression that Belarusian is indeed used universally, however this is not true. Whether this is because local law permits names/addr in 2 languages, or because nobody really controls it properly is another matter.
Due to this, irregularities/errors will appear on the map, with a chaotic mix of rus/bel names, leading to a (perceived) decrease in map quality, consistency and, most notably, challenges for existing data users.
Switching to Belarusian yielded such challenges for Google/Apple, with search errors and misspelling from what I've seen.
While mapping Belarus in Belarusian is the logical and right thing to do, it lags behind, whether due to community makeup or lack of interest.
I would propose creating a task group to first of all assess the scale and viability of ru->be switch. Once the requirements are somewhat set, the community can see how much is done and needs doing.
In the meantime, the current scheme is to be left in place.
This way we can at least shorten and smooth out the transition period.
Did anyone elevate this argument btw?
@4004: the majority of us agreed on switching the name tag to Belarusian and to check whether the name:ru tag is filled. This is for toponyms, monuments, and administrative levels (when you travel into Belarus), you see clearly written "Мінская воблсасць" and not "Минская область", for instance.
We will not change commercial names nor the administration building names.
However, dear 4004, we the addr. tag is an issue on which we must discuss together and creating a task group on such technical matters is a good idea I believe.
P.S.: the Russian version of the convention mentioned above by Шурик leaves the door open for language switches: "В результате обсуждения пришли к решению, что названия в тегах name пишутся ТОЛЬКО на русском языке, поскольку так исторически сложилось, и русскоязычных источников данных, пользователей и участников проекта очевидно больше, чем белорусскоязычных. Если будет принято решение перейти на использование белорусского языка в качестве основного, содержимое тегов name будет скопировано в name:ru (при его отсутствии), а name:be --- в name автоматически."
>for toponyms, monuments, and administrative levels
This should work fine for admin levels (100% bilingual I believe). Toponyms will need some work (last figure I've seen was around 70%?), while monuments is debatable, but alas.
Indeed, at the time the convention was agreed there was much less progress on be naming, and working towards it was and remains one of the goals of the local community (one would think).
@4004 Monuments are low-level edits. We are now discussing the high-level amendments-human settlements. In Ukraine, monuments of Soviet time survived also in Russian. But they did not become a hindrance to ukrainization even in the Russian-speaking territories of Ukraine. Monuments, I guess not so much, that they have become a hindrance to correcting violations on ground in the names of human settlements.
My opponents in a quiet, unobtrusive mode of doing with the Belarusian language is a language which is not a place in the 21st century, because the modern world is built on the digital divide. Instead of having to make the language of technocratic, we relive the new Third Technic Revolution
The Belarusian language has only one new gadget for the letter "ў". The rest of the letters in the Cyrillic alphabet have proven the absence of problems. The letter "ў" exists in the Cyrillic character gadget in the gadgets character moved from the computer through the modifications. For example the Android version Osmand has no problems with languages. It happens in all languages to search and easily switch to another language. For general technical difficulties then they refuted in this discussion.
I I sat down in the search engines of the Internet. Supporters of the Belarusian keyboard and dialling of the texts in this language is nothing to worry. Belarusian keyboard there are to download and install on the phone even for unpopular models of smartphones.
Thus, if there are gadgets Belarusian keyboard with searching and with the letter "ў" there is generally no problem.
There is such a factor in the tourist, arrived in another country is the English language. Many tourists in a foreign country seeking settlements through English.
I do not understand why the position on tourism, visit/search/settlements in Belarus is kept only on Russian turistah of the countries of the Socialist camp. Why go Division on the tourists highest grade/Russian-speaking countries of the Socialist camp and the low grade/holidaymakers, for which the same Cyrillic characters perceive as we are Georgian, Armenian characters-that is absolutely one hundred percent that's confusing. Belarus is not North Korea, and there is no ban tourists from countries not included in the countries of the Socialist camp. If the tourist English matches the sign of the Belarusian on the road with the information of the Belarusian on a map — it simply will decide the route.
@Poliakoff Mykhailo - Your point is good. You mention the ў, it is usually automatically transliterated automatically into "y" instead of "ŭ" when you switch to another language than Russian. This is why it is extremely important not to forget to transliterate into Latin in the int_name tag ("Магілёў" will automatically appear as "Magiley" if we don't do that. So people must remember to check whethre the int_name tag is filled and appears as "Mahilioŭ"), The vast majority of locality names are already transliterated into Łacinka, but it is not the case of lakes, monuments and other infrastructure.
Your point on the Ukraine transition is good. Recently I've had a look into some roads in Ukraine and I noticed toponyms are in Ukrainian, but some monuments are left in Russian. I think it would look more or less the same on the Belarusian side.
It certainly will look similar, at least at first.
@Poliakoff Mykhailo if we are talking technical points now, such a switch would introduce challenges not only for those without a "ў"-supporting keyboard, but also those confused by 2 languages used side-by-side in similar contexts, be it administrative buildings or addr.
Regarding your tourism point, it is more of a question to tourism authorities and businesses. While some are kinda trying to insert some Belarusian here and there, it is mostly done as a "local peculiarity" type of thing, rather than out of one's national identity realisation. Most of their business comes from Russians/russian speakers, so I can't really blame them. This is what happens when you only focus on one market.
@4004 Anyway, nobody is trying to Belarusize business names ;) And about monuments, I had included it for 2 reasons:
- they are always shown in Belarusian on roadsigns
- On those monuments you usually have some sign with the word "каштоўнасць" ("monument" if I'm not mistaken) with a short explanation.
However, Belarusicizing some typical communist monuments "слава героям" is not necessary IMO. Especially given the fact they are not indicated on roadsigns.
Now my essential question is: should we continue changing manually those toponyms? Or will that be an automatic process?
I vote for automatic process. It's easy to break things when manually changing ways and relations.
Given what mOlind just mentioned, I also vote for an automatic process.
@Jay May I believe you might've mixed up monuments (which include Lenin statues and the like) with historical/touristy places, like castles etc. Different things, certainly the historical pois (especially the important/popular ones) would usually have a name:be as well.
Regarding the switch, automated would be easier, faster and less error-prone, I assume. Needs to be checked anyway
Proofreading is always easier than reading ;) So it is a good solution to make it automatically and switch. Especially that people like Georgij or me are not proficient in some OSM matters yet (like that addr tag)
I'm for the automatic
Then 2-3 days and on the map will be the Belarusian language. When it appears you will be able to click through all the settlements. To correct to the Belarusian language name: prefix addr: district addr province Also I ask to approve the name tag: en where the name of objects in English is duplicated on the popular 1965 abroad standard. It is different from the Belarusian dress. Look I've previously dialed maps of Belarus in English and French - there are 80 percent of the cards with the 1965 standard.
The principle of on ground in terms of the real use of the name in another language can not be rejected. The map in English will be latin. My suggestion will only help with the search.
My opinion is that the English tag in that standard would be O.K., but the int_name tag should be in Belarusian Łacinka.
The result should be reported on the page of the communities of neighboring countries and DWG.
a forum topic needs to be started on this, and approval from DWG would be nice, before doing anything
int_name is already filed correctly, in accordance with http://www.pravo.by/pdf/2007-159/2007-159%28027-028%29.pdf
O.K.guys. As soon as you start, please provide the link
I will finalize now the Khotsinsk raion then along the border with the Russian Federation, then the area to the north of the Khotsinsk raion.
I would propose we wait until there is an agreement on how and when to proceed, and do not attempt anything before that
how to do the proposed example http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/25076922
aren't you rushing a bit Mykhailo? No agreement has been reached, no DWG approval granted, and it was supposed to be centralized and auto, no "regional tests"
This format I provided earlier in this discussion. Therefore, we are informed. If something causes you suspicion, express ideas.
At the ByOSM Telegram chat we decided to have a meeting to discuss all the technical details, tools and other before doing any automated changes.
Welcome everyone who wants to join this discussion, t.me/byosm
"We" might be informed, but this is not enough to start implementing changes, and certainly not by doing it on your own in one place.
"Мы" тут, может быть, и в курсе, но этого недостаточно, чтобы начинать что-то менять. И уж точно не стоит менять как вы это сейчас предложили, по одному, написав только здесь, и в одном дальнем месте карты.
@Ambush could the osm forum be a better place?
You are welcome http://openstreetmap.by/
that's the renderer that uses name:be if it exists
Until it is completely agreed to change the current local convention, it must be observed! All changes have been reverted.
Jaugenka, I've just gone through the threads of various discussions this morning and you wrote "ничего не трогаем" ("we don't touch anything"). Thus, nobody allowed you to revert any changes, especially given the fact other multilingual names and wikipedia data have been added. Right now, by reverting changes the majority of us agreed on anyway, you are vandalizing everyone's work. I fully understand you and Шурик82 are against the changes, and I respect that. But that gives you no right to sabotage everyone's work. Please re-revert those changes.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?????????????????? Jauhenka deleted all the changes we had all made from the very beginning! As you said Georgij, multilingual changes, but even road changes!
I was Jauhenka was a reasonable person, but I'm afraid what one of the guys told me is right: he is just trying to gain time to revert all the changes. Are you conscious, Jauhenka, under such conditions you can get banned for vandalizing?
Fist of all, all of you were warned several times in this thread not to make any changes while the discussion is going on. Secondly, for now only renamings of settlements and admin boundaries have been reverted. I'm yet to analyse what else you have renamed.
Вот только не надо брать на себя святую миссию все откатывать. Это сильно пахнет вандализмом и может закончится баном. Я не оправдываю тех, кто полез переименовывать что под руку попадется, но и откаты чужой работы - это крайнее средство.
Как я вижу ситуацию на настоящий момент: Переименование будет. Будет по всей стране и в автоматизированном режиме. Ни одно название на русском не пострадает. Все будет сохранено в name:ru. Адресный граф так же будет сохранен, т.к. все addr:street и addr:place будут изменены на обновленный name. Часть улиц, для которых пока нету переводов будут оставлены на русском, до тех пор, пока перевод не появится.
Кто очень хочет начать переименовывать - вносите name:be, где их нету. Они не потеряются и будут использованы в последующем для name.
@yaugenka: O.K. There is an enormous confusion here with people asking to change manually while people discuss about changing automatically, people asking to wait for the automatic change, and people who don't want any change. Nevertheless, that doesn't change the fact that no one gave you the authorization to revert those changes (unless, of course, if someone totally deleted the name:ru tag, with what we all agree)
@mOlind: O.K. This means we need to check *every single toponym* anyway because I noticed (although it is a minority) that sometimes the tag name:ru or the tag name:be is missing.
Is there any way to have a global view of those missing tags name:be and name:ru?
>Кто очень хочет начать переименовывать - вносите name:be, где их нету. Они не потеряются и будут использованы в последующем для name
+1 to that (your app is nice btw).
Translation: those who want to start the switch straight away - start by filling in name:be where it doesn't exist or is empty. They'll be kept in place and used for the future switch.
Komяpa once provided a search result for this query:
gis=# select count(distinct name), count(distinct tags->'name:be') from (select name, tags from planet_osm_point union all select name, tags from planet_osm_line union all select name, tags from planet_osm_polygon) a;
to compare name:ru and be coverage, I suppose a similar query can be used to check untranslated placed, @Jay May
Oh, and here is a translation checker
4004 : перестаньте пользуясь что не все грамотньіе технически вводить людей в заблуждение. Указанньіе на офруме проблемі являются вьідуманньіми лично Вами. Поповоду отсуствия реакции о просьбе 5 часов назад --- то предоставьте нам таблицу название и второй столбик что искать /куда ввести /автоматическую работу мьі сделаем потихоньку . По поводу ссьілки с попереднього повідомлення то я ничего не понял. Заглянул в Telegram - но и после попередня ссылка осталась для меня загадкой .
вы меня с кем то путаете? я никого в заблуждение не ввожу, и уж точно ничего не придумываю.
последняя ссылка, которую я тут привел - ближе всего, из того, о чем я знаю, к вашим запросам "предоставьте нам таблицу название и второй столбик что искать /куда ввести", свой валидатор я писать не буду
а как делаем -- оставляем name:be-tarask и дублируем в name:be? Или name be-tarask переделываем в name be. при этом надо учитыват ь что здесь одинаково то ест ька кбы транслитерация а согласно вики-правила о теге name - избегайте транслитерацию
-в первую очередь необходимо проверить, что name=name:ru для будущего перехода автоматом. Если name!=name:ru, проверить какой из вариантов соответствует действительности и заполнить. При необходимости - перевести с другого name (если есть);
-перевести/заполнить name:be, в соответствии с подтверждаемой информацией/источниками;
-по желанию - заполнить name:be-tarask и прочие вариации.
Первые 2 пункта наиболее важны, на них и предлагается сосредоточить усилия
Есть проблемное село в Хотимском раене Ново-Григорьевка. По белорусски не соотвествует русскому . Искать надо официальное название на белорусском или подтверждение что белоруссский и русский разные Можно конечно и перевести но это непрофессионально.
В Телеграмме (респект ) дали неофициальный реестр по этом у вопросу - но я считаю надо найти официальное .
2 Поселок Владимировка и есму подобные поскольку там жителей 0 надо перетегировать по утвержденной схеме https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/RU:Tag:place%3Dlocality#.D0.97.D0.B0.D0.B1.D1.80.D0.BE.D1.88.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8B.D0.B5_.D0.B4.D0.B5.D1.80.D0.B5.D0.B2.D0.BD.D0.B8 (Заброшенные деревни )
@Mykhailo, вам для справки. В одном районе может быть несколько нп с одним названием. Если они отличаются типом (поселок, деревня, снп) то тип нужно обязательно указать в поле name:prefix. Если и тип у них одинаковый, то нужно обязательно прописать addr:subdistirct=<название сельсовета>. Иначе будет невозможно их отличить.
Изучите правки мои в Хоцінскам раёне. Все о чем вы пишите сделано мною изначально кроме сельсовета . Сейчас заново перегребаю район чтоб всем поставить сельсоветы
Всем НП проставлять сельсовет большой надобности нету. Речь только о тех, у которых повторяется название в рамках одного района.
то что вы предлагаете, превратить карту в порнографию. Тег используется или нет. Предстоит много подготовительной работы . И нет времени тратить времени на изучение одно название в районе или два . Во вторых : наличие во всех тега сельсовет еще нужно потому , что границы сельсоветов у вас не нарисованы и кто ищет поселок на карте его найдет как поселок какое-того района.
Яугенка всвязи с тем что іВовік занимается занимаеться расизмом ксенофобией и дискриминацией белорусского языка
@Mykhailo, переименовывая addr:* и name:prefix на белорусский вы ломаете существующие программы. Откатывайте свои правки!
Праблема Беларусі я бачу не ў сферы тэхналогій, у у тым, што ў кіраўніцтве ўсіх інтэрнэт-праектаў сядзяць людзі якія атрымліваюць дадатковыя матэрыяльныя ўзнагароды з-за мяжы. Іх мэта: препятствывать ўваходжання беларускай мовы ў сучасным інтэрнэце-праекты, і ператварэнне яго ў мёртвай мове як лацінскі або царкоўнаславянская.
Кіруюць гэтыя картографы па выпрабаванай часам савецкай сістэме: начальнік заўсёды мае рацыю, калі ён не мае рацыю, глядзі пункт першы.
Загадана ім, выкарыстоўвайце любыя самыя брудныя метады, але беларуская мова трэба выкінуць з інтэрнэт-тэхналогій назусім
, Парушаць Прынцып @on ground @ і зневажаць беларускую мову я- я супраць.
Картограф Jay пісаў мне што многія, у асабістых паведамленнях, дзякавалі за спробу спыніць чарговае здзек з беларускай мовай.
Праблемы з праграмнымі скрыптамі - гэтыя выдумкі вы пішыце для людзей, якія акрамя як уключыць-выключыць, і яшчэ некалькі простых функцый, больш нічога не ведаюць і не разумеюць у інтэрнэт-тэхналогіях. Я падчас дыскусіі рабіў вам, заўвагу, робіць паўторна: перастаньце дамагацца мэтаў шляху хлусні, іншы брудныя метады.
Ваша абарона рускай мовы - парушэнне on ground. Абараняючы парушэнне правілаў - вы знішчаеце праект і стварае перадумовы да войнаў правак
И обсуждение скатилось в флуд. Отписываюсь.
собственно как и в телеграме. что то менять никто не договаривался
@4004 Which is why I asked for people in Telegram "where are we going" because it is such a mess that it's hard for everyone to get what we should do.
@Mykhailo @Yaugenka - STOP!
Hi all - Andy from the Data Working Group here. A couple have people have mentioned the ongoing arguments about language names in Belarus to us, and we'd like to do what we can to help. Obviously we're somewhat aware of the history here (and I've read the various numbers, some conflicting, on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Belarus ). It may be that one solution won't work for the whole country, and that "name" may need to be BE in one place, RU in another (with of course name:be and name:ru being present in both).
Mobile maps will generally already render based on either name:be or name:ru, as does http://openstreetmap.by . I'm sure it's been mentioned before, but for the avoidance of doubt the usual guidance on "what goes in the name tag" is based on http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf . If anyone wants the DWG's guidance on particular places then please email firstname.lastname@example.org , and explain why you think that a "name" as it currently is in OSM. If you can provide evidence (perhaps a photograph of a Belarussian road sign, or evidence that most people in a place speak Russian) then please include that too, and we'll do what we can to help reach the best compromise we can.
Andy Townsend, on behalf of OSM's Data Working Group.
I've already sent such pics around a week ago. Please ask your colleague Frederik Ramm. In case you need them again, I can send them once more :)
In short, asI had already told, toponyms are usually in Belarusian (cities, towns, villages, rivers, lakes...) while commercial names are mostly in Russian and translating them makes no sense IMHO. Sometimes in Belarusian, sometimes in English, French, Polish, etc.
If you'd need more details, don't you guys hesitate in asking me :) Kind regards,
Stop, guys. What about our local agreement which was reached in same time as road signs was already in belorussian?
Nothing is changed still. There is no reason to avoid the agreement. Photos have no sense in this case.
The local agreement was perhaps good in a certain context back in 2009. But the context has changed.
To improve an electronic geographical map ONLY on signboards confirms the Belarussian WIKI-RULE
For info, I've just posted this to the BE forum:
All feedback (from everyone who hasn't already commented) gratefully received.
I think the most important factor here should be what the local OSM community wants. People from other countries (Poland, Ukraine, Russia, etc) shouldn't dictate the Belarusian community which language they use as their main mapping language. If they agreed to use Russian, this should be respected. And such issues shouldn't be resolved in a changeset discussion anyway.
@Maturi0n - I’m aware your heart beats more for the Russian language to be left, but this is not a matter of the local community wanting or not wanting something (and anyway most of the guys who discuss with us do support the Belarusian language or a full ground truth rule). OSM is neither a local project, neither an ethnographic nor linguistic project. Hence, we cannot afford to think only about local communities nor map freaks like you and me. Lots of apps are using the wrong data so far because of us, and thus showing an alternative “wannabe” reality. We have the chance to change it and IMHO we should seize it. That’s all.
Now the rule according to signs "decides at the earth" works or not. Or the precedent which will do to other countries by a push is created, the fact that there is a wish. Especially it is dangerous to territories of the conflicts where the tomahawk of wars of changes is dug. The Belarusian community - isn't better, it isn't worse than others. The Belarusian community shows, що they "the highest race" of which everything is possible, and other communities "lowest race". If the Belarusian community officially writes as the obligation to all that we will change names of the cities of villages for example about New Year - then the discussion would be ended. But there is no it. Therefore it is also necessary to press on the Belarusian community that they were as all are equal before rules.
in Russian Сейчас решаеться правило по знакам "на земле " работает или нет. Или создается прецедент, который будет толчком другим странам делать , то что хочется. Особенно это опасно для територий конфликтов , где томагавк войн правок закопан. Белорусское сообщество - не лучше , не хуже других . Белорусское сообщество демонстрирует , що они "высшая раса" которой можно все, а другие сообщества "низшая раса" . Если б белорусское сообщество официально написало как обязательство перед всеми , что мы названия городов сел поменяем сами например до Нового Года - тогда б дискуссия была окончена. Но этого нет . Поэтому и приходится давить на белорусское сообщество, что б они были как все равны перед правилами.
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