Changeset: 136091078
fixing unusual shop values with a clear replacement
Closed by Mateusz Konieczny - bot account
Tags
automatic | yes |
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bot | yes |
cases_where_human_help_is_required | https://matkoniecz.github.io/OSM-wikipedia-tag-validator-reports/ |
created_by | osmapi/1.3.0 |
created_by_library | https://github.com/matkoniecz/osm_bot_abstraction_layer |
discussion_before_edits | https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2023-February/088076.html and https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2023-April/thread.html#88185 |
osm_wiki_documentation_page | https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/fixing_malformed_shop_tags |
Discussion
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Comment from SomeoneElse
Clearly the change to e.g. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/353944525 is causing information to be lost here (not much information, but still something).
The correct tag here would be "shop=charity". -
Comment from Mateusz Konieczny
> The correct tag here would be "shop=charity".
Do you know this based on local knowledge or something else? I would be happy to replace it but I have no idea how this may be safely assumed here based on what I know.
> is causing information to be lost here (not much information, but still something).
What kind of information is lost? That it is not a wholesaler?
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Comment from SomeoneElse
As I have said on the mailing list already, local knowledge. Also, as I have also said on the mailing list, a quick overpass search finds lots of other similarly named shops tagged as "shop=charity" nearby.
I could forgive a completely new OSM contributor with making this kind of basic error, but am genuinely saddened that someone with your level of experience with OSM is making these kind of basic mistakes.
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Comment from Mateusz Konieczny
Changing then to shop=charity
> As I have said on the mailing list already
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2023-May/088289.html ? Or also something else? I will respond to it - though not sure whether I will be able to do this today (but definitely before any bot edits)
But let me know if it is urgent to read/respond that message or some of not answered changeset comments
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Comment from Mateusz Konieczny
> a quick overpass search finds lots of other similarly named shops tagged as "shop=charity" nearby
I am not fan of NSI style blind replacements based on name match and I am not planning to do them
> this kind of basic error
What exactly is basic error here? If I would spot the same kind of data nearby me while editing I would do the same kind of edit manually (shop=retail to shop=yes)
Do you mean being unaware that it is shop=charity?
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Comment from SomeoneElse
Your basic errors were:
Performing an undocumented mechanical edit (the text at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/fixing_malformed_shop_tags does not cover this case).
Thinking that changing "rare tag I do not understand" into "common but meaningless tag" added any value.
Continuing with these ridiculous edits despite being told that they were damaging (and after you yourself had reverted previous examples after previous complaints!).
Not using any common sense when trying to work out what a sensible value might be. Did you ask anyone? No. Did you investigate? No (a search locally for shops with the name Lighthouse will find a number of "Lighthouse Charity Shop" examples).
I can guarantee that a mention on IRC that you were going to change a shop in Nottingham with the name Lighthouse into a nondescriptive value would have got an immediate response.
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Comment from Mateusz Konieczny
Why you think it is undocumented?
Have you seen comments in https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/136075427 ?
> Performing an undocumented mechanical edit (the text at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/fixing_malformed_shop_tags does not cover this case).
That is because it was removed in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Mechanical_Edits%2FMateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account%2Ffixing_malformed_shop_tags&type=revision&diff=2527714&oldid=2525269 to document that it will not be done again.
There is "Additionally https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/136075427 resulted in stopping to change shop=fixme"
Also, shop=fixme was in https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2023-April/088185.html from thread linked on documentation page and in changeset comments here
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Comment from SomeoneElse
(just to be clear - here we are talking about anything to shop=yes, not just shop=fixme)
If you've removed it from the wiki page, are you going to undo your changes?
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Comment from Mateusz Konieczny
> Thinking that changing "rare tag I do not understand" into "common but meaningless tag" added any value.
(1) I am definitely not changing all shop=* tags that I do not understand into shop=yes.
In such cases I leave them alone (for example, from start of my list of exactly such values:
shop=grossery, shop=towing, shop=showroom, shop=salon, shop=garage,
shop=pond, shop=consignment...)(2) It was change of rare meanigless tag into a more common meaningless tag with support into some QA tools allowing easier spotting and fixing it (maybe it still should be not done, but presenting it as changing tags while I know that I do not understand them is weird)
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Comment from Mateusz Konieczny
> If you've removed it from the wiki page, are you going to undo your changes?
I can do this, though I ask you to at least read what I posted and consider it. shop=yes usage going up does not mean that it is not being reviewed or that shop=yes objects are less likely to be reviewed than shop=fixme
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Comment from Mateusz Konieczny
if you have read what I posted in this changeset comment/other changeset comments/talk mailing list and still think that it was bad edit then I can roll back shop=fixme changes and maybe also other if also problematic.
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Comment from Mateusz Konieczny
> (just to be clear - here we are talking about anything to shop=yes, not just shop=fixme)
Are you asking also to undo say shop=*/shop=unknown to shop=yes changes discussed in February 2023?
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Comment from Mateusz Konieczny
Or are you asking to roll it back only in UK?
If you are asking to roll back everything, everywhere - would you be fine with asking wider community whether they think that shop=* is preferable to shop=yes (and if not - is shop=yes preferable enough to change it)
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Comment from Mateusz Konieczny
Also, do you still think that it was an undocumented bot edit? That claim was a bit irritating as my bot edits are relatively rare case of actually following https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct
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Comment from SomeoneElse
To be clear, what I'm suggesting is that if you _really_ care about having correct values in OSM then a tiny bit of research will often yield correct values. https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1v53 is the set of your recent changes over a widish area. Many of the items that that finds can be easily found: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/441917983/history is clearly https://www.the-stone-shop.com/ for example, and of the in-use tags at https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/shop#overview perhaps https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/shop=gemstones is the best bet.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/658618239/history is pretty obviously https://www.facebook.com/raysdiscountstores/ , and looks like a https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/shop=variety_store to me.
Changing these to shop=yes means that they get lost in https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1v54 , which means that they will just get ignored, like the other 180k examples. -
Comment from SomeoneElse
> Also, do you still think that it was an undocumented bot edit?
Yes, in the sense that you wrote some documentation saying what you were going to do and then did something else instead. To be honest, I have re-read https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/fixing_malformed_shop_tags and I still struggle to understand exactly what you are trying to say. I presume that "Please write at bot approval thread." means "please reply on the mailing list" to prevent part of this change from occurring" I did that and you ignored the request. By that definition it is surely an undocumented mechanical edit.
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Comment from SomeoneElse
> I am not fan of NSI style blind replacements based on name match and I am not planning to do them
I'm glad to hear that, but unfortunately what you are doing is even worse! You aren't even thinking about what the correct value for an object is. What you are doing is akin to setting everything to "highway=road" because you can't be bothered to survey or look at imagery. -
Comment from Mateusz Konieczny
> I presume that "Please write at bot approval thread." means "please reply on the mailing list" to prevent part of this change from occurring" I did that and you ignored the request.
Argghhh. Now I understand how it looked from your side and I agree that it was also reasonable to interpret it this way.
> What you are doing is akin to setting everything to "highway=road" because you can't be bothered to survey or look at imagery.
I would argue that setting highway=unknown_type to highway=road would be helpful and useful because it is detected by many tools, while no actual data is lost
> Changing these to shop=yes means that they get lost in https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1v54 , which means that they will just get ignored, like the other 180k examples.
(1) being findable in one go with other standalone shop=yes is in my opinion actually friendlier to people looking to fix them
(2) standalone shop=yes are being processed - just a single tool (where checking POI count is easy) resulted in fixes to 6000 shop=yes in 2022, and this one is not really important in this context. Similarly, other tools would never list shop=fixme and other rarely used values (and going through all rarely used shop=* values is not really effective - either when looking at taginfo or by looking at nearby undocumented values)
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Comment from Mateusz Konieczny
> Many of the items that that finds can be easily found:
rolled back for this objects, opened notes at https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/3693714 and https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/3693712
Not convinced at all that shop=other or shop=store are more likely to result in fixes or that moving to shop=yes is losing any data or making harder to fix it. If anything it would cause it to appear in various QA tools and still be clearly visible to any mapper inspecting it manually.
Not changed to values you mentioned as I am not sure enough to retag it to that values.
Ways (4)
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