Changeset: 124167457
Nant de Drance
Closed by Halbtax
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (18511 en) |
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source | survey |
Discussion
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Comment from InfosReseaux
Hello
Thank you for your modification.
I feel uncertain about building=yes => man_made=works. Osmcha flag them as invalid modification
https://osmcha.org/changesets/124167457/building=industrial would be more suitable for those caverns?
man_made=works is dedicated to good production aren't you?Best regards
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Comment from Halbtax
Hello
I think most of us associate the term building with an above-ground structure (see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building). The tag building was created on the basis of this assumption (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Buildings). When you find something with this tag on the map, you expect to see something with walls and a roof on the surface of the earth. If we represent a cavern in the same way, it is rather irritating or even misleading for most users.
OSMCha flags this change assuming that it is a building and not a cavern. Unfortunately, OSMCha knows nothing about the situation on site.
The tag man_made is exactly intended to tag structures that are not buildings. I agree with you, man_made=works is not really accurate. man_made=cavern would probably be more appropriate. It's not used much yet, but probably only because caverns haven't been tagged much.
Best regards
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Comment from InfosReseaux
Hello
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Buildings mentions location=underground as possible usage for buildings.
These osm features don't represent actual caverns. Are you aware of what it is exactly?
Using man_made=works is suitable, problem is to replace building=* with man_made=works. It's two different things which aren't incompatible.
I've surveyed it several times, these are buildings, built from concrete in place.
https://www.bulletin.ch/files/content/news-articles/B_Artikel/2019/1902/B_1902_NdD/B_1902_Nant-de-Drance_Figure_4.png
Could you restore it please?Cheers
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Comment from Halbtax
Hello
I am well aware that the inside of the cavern is made of concrete. But that does not make it a building. A building is erected on the terrain, a cavern is excavated out of the rock. These are two very different concepts. For a building you can see the walls and roof from the outside, for a cavern you can't see anything from the outside. We should not mix the two.
Wikipedia quotes a definition "A building is a structure with a roof and walls …". OSM uses the term a bit less narrowly. However, we should not stretch the meaning of the tag too far from the general definition. This would reduce the quality and usefulness of the map.
Tagging caverns is not really widespread yet. Very few mappers can verify their exact location with sufficient accuracy. Perhaps man_made=cavern could be more suitable. OSM also allows own values here.
Cheers
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Comment from InfosReseaux
Hello
"For a building you can see the walls and roof from the outside" Do you have any source that can confirm this assumption please?
"we should not stretch the meaning of the tag too far from the general definition"
The structure I'm tagging here does have a roof and walls, I'm not stretching anything."Tagging caverns"
I'm not tagging caverns, but building inside caverns, that's not exactly the same although we could mix them both on the same osm feature.That's why I'm asking to restore building=industrial or at least building=yes on these spaces please
Cheers
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Comment from Halbtax
Hello
Perhaps we have argued a little past each other up to now. I am sorry about that. I was under the impression that we were talking about mapping caverns.
When it comes to describing structures within caverns, we should bear in mind that caverns themselves are already artificially created underground structures. For what is contained within them, we should keep in mind the rules of indoor mapping. Compare also https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Simple_Indoor_Tagging
I was in this area last summer and could not find anything that could be called a building at this position. In OSM, buildings are usually associated with structures on the surface. Other underground structures such as underground car parks are also not mapped as buildings unless they are also visible on the surface. I think it would be very misleading to find a building here on the map that is not visible to the normal visitor.
Cheers
Ways (8)
- Nant de Drance (238138373), v6
- Centrale souterraine de Nant de Drance (238138374), v5
- Chambre des vannes supérieure (238138376), v6
- Centrale à Béton (252214071), v3
- Chambre de reconaissance inférieure (252214072), v3
- Chambre de reconaissance supérieure (252214073), v3
- Concasseur (252214074), v3
- 378206112, v4
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