Changeset: 121029427
Remutaka Rail Trail - Maymorn to Cross Creek yard: formation is as a track - regular users are cyclists, walkers and motors with permit have signed access. I have tagged as track and maintained existing access and route relations.
Closed by AlwynWellington
Tags
changesets_count | 3712 |
---|---|
created_by | iD 2.20.4 |
host | https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit |
imagery_used | LINZ NZ Aerial Imagery;LINZ NZ Topo50 Gridless Maps;Esri World Imagery (Clarity) Beta |
locale | en-GB |
source | local knowledge;over many years including this year |
Discussion
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Comment from ❤️🔥
Hi, you wouldn't be allowed to drive a car down the Remutaka Rail Trail, even if you politely asked GWRC or DOC, so it's not correct to add `motor_vehicle=permit` to this trail, see https://wiki.osm.org/Tag:access=permit
(except for the small section northwest of https://osm.org/node/272776225)
Also, please don't remove the tags `bicycle=designated` and `foot=designated`, or downgrade them to `*=yes`, since they are very important for routing software. (see https://osm.org/changeset/110939910 and https://osm.org/changeset/111562537 )
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Comment from AlwynWellington
Thank you for your comments.
You will note that vehicles is tagged =Permit.
On all my recent trips I have observed several vehicles along the upper reaches of the rail trail. Users included Hutt Valley High School and private users accessing the shooting range.If you consider the description of "Track" in the Wiki you will see that tag is appropriate.
Tagging as "designated" does not affect route relations. Any signage is simply describing who has access.
Designated was not previously applied to the track from the Maymorn car park nor to the service roads near Tunnel Gully.
This lack of "designated" does not seem to affect routing. Routing is determined by the application of a route, regardless of the highway type.Please do not adjust my edits. They are principled.
Please discuss principles more widely at Talk NZ if you wish.
best regards
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Comment from AlwynWellington
With great respect, you do not have ownership of the Remutaka Rail Trail.
You should not alter my principled edits without prior discussion and agreeing how to move forward.Please revert any changes you have made today to this route.
As offered before, please raise a discussion on Talk NZ
best regards
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Comment from AlwynWellington
Having read back my latest post, I can see some might see it as not temperate.
I would appreciate your explanation, supported by references to the help Wiki, as to why marking cycle or foot=designated assists routing for both walkers and cyclists. Especially, as it the case here the residential and service roads along the route do not appear to have any access marked as "designated"
I ask as, having created and maintained many route relations and not used the "designated" tag, these routes seem fine many years later.
Best wishes
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Comment from ❤️🔥
Hi, I haven't made any changes to these trails for several months... Please also note that no one has "ownership" over any features in OSM, we should all aim to map things as best as possible.
You're right, the difference between "designated" and "yes" does not affect route relations, but it is important to distinguish the difference between:
- a path that is designed for cycling (e.g. the Remutaka Rail Trail would have bicycle=designated),
- vs a path that is not designed for cycling, yet cycling is still allowed (e.g. the Kāpiti Expressway would have bicycle=yes).More info here: https://wiki.osm.org/Tag:access=designated
Regarding `motor_vehicle=permit`, this is tricky, but the wiki page says "This tag should be used in cases where a permit is required, but is routinely granted to everyone requesting it". You would know better than me whether this definition is appropriate, but I don't think it makes sense south of the Siberia Tunnel, where there are anti-car barriers, no useful destination for cars, nowhere to turn around for several kilometers, and no car access without going thru private property.
More info here: https://wiki.osm.org/Tag:access=permit
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Comment from AlwynWellington
Thank you
I suspect the purpose of having to request access is to, amongst other considerations, to ensure the requestor meets relevant conditions. When that occurs, the permits is routinely granted..
In this case being an accredited user of the rifle range about 500 metres from Kaitoke car park would result in a permission (and key) being routinely granted.Vehicle=yes is not an option.
The other practical (documented) option is to tag: vehicle=private.
I was loathe to do that as I did not know how that might affect other uses of this Trail within OSM.
Your thoughts
best wishes
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Comment from ❤️🔥
I agree that motor_vehicle=permit makes sense for the small section northwest of https://osm.org/node/272776225, sorry if that wasn't clear in my original message. But motor_vehicle=permit doesn't seem right for the other end of the trail, especially south-east of the Siberia Tunnel (see previous message).
More importantly, could you please explain why you're changing some access restrictions from "designated" to "yes", and deleting the bicycle= and foot= tags? I don't quite understand your explanation in https://osm.org/changeset/110939910 and https://osm.org/changeset/111562537
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Comment from AlwynWellington
There are two issues on the go.
I propose we work through them one at a time. As the vehicle access tagging issue seems to be simpler, I propose we work at that one first.Vehicle access tagging
The section from Siberia down to Cross Creek Yard is a track (wide enough for a train back in the day, and now four wheeled vehicles) the only matter to consider is what access vehicles have.
There is a highway=track from Cross Creek car park across private farm land to Cross Creek Yard. As might be expected, this is marked as access=private. And no doubt this is how DoC, as land owner, gains access to the publicly available Rail Trail for whatever maintenance or works they wish to carry out from Siberia down.I don't think it is for us to speculate how DoC manage the Rail Trail and what types of vehicles they use, when needed.
As Vehicle=yes (open to all) or = no (open to no one) seems inappropriate. This 5 km not open to all and nor, as far as we can tell, is it closed to all.
The choice seems to be one of permit or private.
I cannot easily find Wiki descriptions for others in the pop-up list for vehicle access. You may have better luck.
Which of those two do you suggest?
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Comment from ❤️🔥
Sorry for the delayed reply. I'm not sure whether motor_vehicle=private or motor_vehicle=no is better, but motor_vehicle=permit seems wrong according to the wiki (https://wiki.osm.org/Tag:access=permit), since that tag suggests that anyone who asks for a permit will receive one, which is not the case here. The wiki says "If permit is hard to obtain, then it is typically access=private".
You said you struggled to find the wiki documentation - here's the list of values: https://wiki.osm.org/Key:access#List_of_possible_values
Ways (1-20 of 35)
- 1
- 2
- Cross Creek Road (87810344), v9
- Remutaka Rail Trail (144377507), v12
- Remutaka Rail Trail / Tunnel Drive (144377508), v13
- Remutaka Rail Trail (144377509), v12
- Remutaka Rail Trail (144377511), v17
- Pakuratahi Tunnel (144377512), v12
- Price's Tunnel (144377514), v10
- Siberia Tunnel (144377515), v10
- Remutaka Rail Trail (144377517), v11
- Remutaka Rail Trail / Tunnel Drive (144377518), v15
- Summit Tunnel (144377520), v10
- Mangaroa Tunnel (144377521), v11
- 181089967, v3
- 181089971, v3
- Remutaka Rail Trail (181089972), v14
- Pākuratahi River (216991480), v7
- Remutaka Rail Trail - Maymorn to Featherston (216991484), v15
- Remutaka Rail Trail (216991486), v11
- Howe Truss Bridge (216991487), v9
- Remutaka Rail Trail (216991488), v18
Relations (1)
- 9742217652, v1
- 9742217653, v1
- 9742217654, v1
- 9742217655, v1
- 9742217656, v1
- 9742217657, v1
- 9742217658, v1
- 9742217659, v1
- 9742217660, v1
- 9742217661, v1
- 9742217662, v1
- 9742217663, v1
- 9742217664, v1
- 9742217665, v1
- 272776341, v8
- 272776342, v8
- 272776343, v8
- 272776350, v9
- 272776352, v8
- 272776353, v8
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