Changeset: 110714281
Estonian bicycle route 16
Closed by UrSuS
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (18191 en) |
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source | https://www.visitestonia.com/en/16-vageva-mao-bicycle-route |
Discussion
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Comment from qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
Hello, route https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/129226648/history
is a residential road. Changing it back. -
Comment from qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
Or not, I don't remember what turns are allowed from that road.
If I remember correctly, it has contradicting signs
1) Combined pedestrian/bicycle road sign
2) Do not enter sign with exclusion for residents (btw, do not enter sign applies to cyclists too, round red circle with a white background excludes them)
3) Residential road signThe signs are kind of confusing there, but you have cut if off for cars completely. I'd say we should go for what practically is expected of this road.
In my opinion, this should be attached back to the Narva mnt and made residential. highway=residential is better than a cycle way as cyclists are often allowed on the road, but the routing software may completely ignore cycleways for cars. Also pedestrians may expect cars there.
Please fix it if you can, unless the signs changed or share your thoughts.
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Comment from fghj753
Current state of Linnuse tee is tagged as cycleway with
motor_vehicle=destination on segment from parking aisle in north until concrete block in south. This means that routing engines will direct drivers to the residents via parking lot and sometimes via Irusilla. Luckily, traffic signs on this junction (#map=19/59.46023/24.90521) are visible on about month old Mapillary imagery.* Turning right from Narva mnt to Linnuse tee is allowed as per destination sign on https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=1001641713992040
* So is left-turn also allowed: https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=2870427889890013
* Notice how first sign is black-on-white while second is white-on-blue. That is caused by junction being located on the legal border of city.
* Traffic signs (No entry except residents) on Linnuse tee are visible on https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=132240762253013
. * Going straight from Pärnamäe tee to Linnuse tee is also allowed as per that image series.
. * There are no visible signs on Linnuse tee and median on Narva mnt has dashed line. Therefore You can turn on all 3 directions from Linnuse tee. It has traffic lights btw.
. * The living-street sign is placed roughly at the spot where street moves from one jurisdiction to another, BUT it's rotated 90 degrees compared to what it should be. That is technique often used with temporary road construction signs to indicate that restrictions are not applied at the moment.
* As for southern end of the street, there are metal barriers visible on last week imagery, but i can't determine, if there are more traffic signs. https://fotoladu.maaamet.ee/etak.php?B=59.45880109804291&L=24.90564843766783&fotoladu
* Regarding conflicting traffic signs, both Tallinn, Jõelähtme and maybe Viimsi should be notified, because road follows along border of two.No idea if caused by this changeset, but https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/633025611 may need fixing as well. I am not sure if it has tactile paving though. Looks like non-standard rumble strip.
PS. This junction was recently redrawn on OSM and anyone fixing this may encounter inconsistent relations or lanewise tagging.
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Comment from qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
Thanks for this thorough analysys, fghj753.
>This means that routing engines will direct drivers to the residents via parking lot and sometimes via Irusilla.
Did you mean Iru tee? Anyway, it can be expected that a good routing engine could allow routing to an access=destination residential road, but routing by a highway=cycleway may be a bit questionable.
>That is technique often used with temporary road construction signs to indicate that restrictions are not applied at the moment.
Or maybe it's vandalism. Actually correct technique:
https://www.google.com/maps/@59.4262229,24.7569369,3a,41.5y,101.37h,88.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHkLLPyCu6d6wuaEsvZ62QQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Btw, they added an exclusion there, yay!What is your opinion on making this a residential street?
Some more questionable combination of a do not enter and a bicycle way, seems like it's ok to assume things:
https://www.google.com/maps/@59.4683898,24.8678497,3a,45.2y,18.92h,89.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srfmjNFmN87cKBR6VhsdkTQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 -
Comment from Pikse
I agree that highway=residential would be more clear, at least till Linnuse tee 3 driveway.
Per Key:access wiki page it looks like value for motor_vehicle=* (or vehicle=*) should rather be "private" for access only for residents, not "destination".
Also direct connection from Narva mnt to Linnuse tee needs to be restored, right?
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Comment from UrSuS
Hi guys! thanks for your interest on my changes :) I'm not local, but I've tried to use Mapillary images to set correct tags. That street\cycleway was tricky to map. Glad you made your suggestion!
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Comment from fghj753
I had a chance to drive past there today and stopped at parking lot for survey. Well, actually there's no signs about being a parking lot. Put together quick drawing of possible osm features. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/537315188039221301/892523230919786496/parnamae-narva.png
In essence, what you see on Mapillary (and streetview) is up to date and valid. No-entry sign comes after the parking lot entrance, but the public part does go across two lowered kerbs (thin white line on drawing).
Most crossings have standardized tactile paving (drawn as thick white line) except crossing on Linnuse tee, which uses mosaic paving (green). Linnuse tee can be entered from all 3 roads and turning to all 3.
Notable odd thing is crossing in parking lot (near tip of yellow arrow) which has traffic_calming=table only on parking lot's side, but not on Linnuse tee's side. SW cycleway has guard rail along northern side, but there's gap at southern corner of parking lot.
All 4 directions of the junction have traffic lights. While U-turn at Irusilla tn is possible, it's not realistic due to volume of traffic and narrow road section.I think Linnuse tee (way/129226648) should be mapped as residential road, but since it's dead-end road, there's no point in adding complicated access restriction tags.
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Comment from qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
I've finally got to updating it. Turned out quite ugly, I've tried different approaches, but all of them don't look good.
Also, there is some route Vana-Narva maantee which seems to start too early and contradicts Maaamet and osm name tags. Maybe should be fixed too.
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Comment from Pikse
To clarify, relation/8264513 (Vana-Narva maantee) is for a national road that can be checked in the register of roads. It extends over several address objects (traffic areas – liikluspinnad), and among others also an address object of the same name.
As for ugly junction, I'd consider merging lanes in opposite direction back into one way. Lanes apparently are separated, but there seems be little, if any, benefit from drawing separate ways.
- 979553948, v1
- Paide (979553949), v1
- 979553950, v1
- 979553951, v1
- Ollivere (979553952), v1
- Paide (979553953), v1
- Paide mnt (979553954), v1
- 979553955, v1
- Pärna (979553956), v1
- 979553957, v1
- 979553958, v1
- 979553959, v1
- 979553960, v1
- 979553961, v1
- 979553962, v1
- 979553963, v1
- 979553964, v1
- 979553965, v1
- 979553966, v1
- Türi tee (979553967), v1
Relations (9)
- 2: Pärnu - Tallinn (404132), v116
- 5: Värska - Pärnu (1085630), v104
- Pärnu — Rakvere — Sõmeru (1751169), v78
- Pärnu — Tori (2841484), v15
- Türi — Väätsa (2892280), v3
- Vodja — Esna (2892284), v4
- 16: Vägeva - Mäo (3116798), v11
- Tartu - Paide - Türi - Rapla - Märjamaa - Risti - Haapsalu (3339869), v105
- Haapsalu - Risti - Märjamaa - Rapla - Türi - Paide - Tartu (3340110), v110
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