Changeset: 106271378
Freguesias extintas de Santarém para historic, vilas e cidades.
Closed by AntMadeira
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (17429 pt) |
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Discussion
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Comment from dieterdreist
Hi, it seems unconventional to promote a town with less than 9000 population to "city", referring to Fátima: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/563655196/
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Comment from AntMadeira
Hi dieterdreist.
In Portugal, cities, towns and villages are mapped according to the law, not according to population, which is not easily verifiable and has big ambiguities compared to other countries.
In this case, Fátima is a city and that's why it is mapped this way.
You can have a sample of a discussion like this here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:place%3Dcity#National_folklore_ruins_the_usefulness_of_place=cityRegards,
António. -
Comment from dieterdreist
The law does not define the meaning of the city tag in OpenStreetMap, I don’t question that you should tag legal settings if they are useful for the context, but I think if the implication would be to map European towns with 8800 population as place=city then the place value is not the right place for this. Maybe it has to do with translation? What is the portuguese term that you map to city?
Cheers Martin
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Comment from AntMadeira
The law is a verifiable way of mapping a city, because its classification derives from the existence of a list of pre-conditions that defines what a city is.
In Portugal, "city" is translated to "cidade", "town" to "vila", "village" to "aldeia".
There's no place in the wiki that states a city in OSM should have more or less than X people. However, these are the most important places in Portugal, that's why they're cities, not town, not villages.
This is a verifiable and concrete way of hierarchization based on what exists on the ground, it's not just a legal definition.The definition of a city in China can not be the same of what a city is in Portugal, so the definition is not and should not be based on the population alone.
Regards,
António. -
Comment from dieterdreist
It seems, cidade can also be translated to town, according to the context the correct translation may be town in many instances. It is not possible, unfortunately, to assume that the English idea of town translates perfectly to the exact same concept in other languages, often you cannot translate the same word 1:1 into the same word in a different language, you have to choose the correct corresponding word(s) according to the context and the definition / idea the languages have about these terms (what they can mean or not). Sometimes, there isn't even a single word in a language for a concept that other languages have a word.
Cheers,
Martin -
Comment from dieterdreist
back to OSM, I think you should indeed record the fact a settlement is considered cidade, vila (which by the way can also mean town or village, according to context) or aldeia (or more), but not in the place tag, it would go against its definition. You can find it here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Dcity
I think you should have a look at admin_title https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/admin_title#overview
Or name:prefix https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name%3Aprefix#overview
or maybe have a completely new key specifically for your situation. -
Comment from AntMadeira
Yes, the English idea of town is very blurry in other countries, even in the USA, but the translation is adequate (I'm a professional translator) and the equivalence is also correct in Portuguese terms.
The Portuguese community approved a verifiable scheme that hierarchizes the place tag according to its reality, which is not (and can not) be the same as in other countries, a bit like the road network of each country, which differs a bit from country to country.
The difference is that Portugal adopted a well defined structure, while most of the definition based on population is unverifiable and prone to subjectiveness and ambiguity.Again: the definition in the city wiki is not based on population, but, and I quote " largest settlement or settlements within a territory, including national, state and provincial capitals".
In Portugal, all admin centres, capitals and admin boundaries are correctly mapped, all the way to the place=village.I see that you opened a topic in the community forum. Let's continue the conversation there, please.
Regards,
António.
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