Changeset: 101726480
Add right-on-red for bicycles
Closed by brainwad
Tags
changesets_count | 712 |
---|---|
created_by | iD 2.19.6 |
host | https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit |
imagery_used | Kanton Zurich, Orthofoto ZH Sommer 2018 RGB 10cm;Custom (https://wms.geo.admin.ch/?BBOX={bbox}&CRS={proj}&FORMAT=image/vnd.jpeg-png8&HEIGHT={height}&LAYERS=ch.swisstopo.images-swissimage&REQUEST=GetMap&SERVICE=WMS&STYLES=&TRANSPARENT=TRUE&VERSION=1.3.0&WI |
locale | en-AU |
resolved:crossing_ways:building-highway | 1 |
Discussion
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Comment from mcliquid
Hi brainwad,
you have created some relations in this changeset, which are shown to me as errors in BRouter suspects.
(https://brouter.de/brouter/suspects/Switzerland/all/809684743698231457)Of course this could be a false-positive, but to be honest I can't figure out the meaning of the relations either.
One half is entered with "restriction:bicycle=give_way", the other with "restriction:bicycle=yes".
Both values are not mapped in the wiki. (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:restriction)You probably wanted to specify the red-turn for cyclists, which could be solved at the traffic light using "red_turn:right:bicycle=yes", without any relation at all.
See: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Red_turnI'm quite open what you were considering, would just like to be able to understand it to be adapt the BRouter error message as well if necessary. Thanks a lot!
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Comment from brainwad
The one with `restriction:bicycle=yes` is a mistake; it should be `restriction:bicycle=give_way`, thanks for catching that.
There are at least 3 tagging schemes that in parallel use for tagging right-on-red for bikes. I've been tagging both with the point-based scheme you mentioned (`red_turn:bicycle=yes`) and with this relation-based scheme that seems popular mostly in France (see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Signalisation_routi%C3%A8re_en_France#Panonceaux_de_type_M, https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction%3Abicycle=give_way#map), because the CyclOSM map renders the latter. It also should in theory be easier for routers because it actually specifies the from and to ways, whereas the point-based tagging scheme is a bit ambiguous.
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Comment from mcliquid
Thanks for your answer. Also, after consulting with the tagging mailing list I conclude:
The on-site signage is an exception for bicyclists at traffic signals that overrides the national “Highway Rules” for this particular case. In some countries, such as the Netherlands, there is no need for explicit signage here, as this is already regulated uniformly for all traffic lights in the ordinance.In Germany and Switzerland, there is only the signage for a right turn on red. In France, the signage exists in the variants right, left, straight ahead and whatever other combinations.
See: https://www.lyon.fr/deplacements/les-modes-doux/panneaux-m12-les-cedez-le-passage-pour-cyclistesThe signs that are described on the webpage of Lyon definitely don't say that someone should give way to the cyclists but that the cyclist have to give way to the others, pedestrians as well as vehicles. The special feature is that the meaning of a red light is changed from a mandatory stop to a "give way".
For this situation we have already “red_turn:[right/left ..]:bicycle=yes” at “highway=traffic_signals”
(plus a draft for a proposal from 2016
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/turn_signals, that hasn't been changed in the last 6 years but is linked to in the wiki as "newer": traffic_signals:turn:bicycle:forward=all|right_on_red - I don't favour that, too many features in one single tag.)By consensus of the tagging mailing list relations seems really heavy to see and maintain and we agreed that a relation usually wouldn't be necessary. And in fact: the signs don't make up a restriction. The restriction relation is a tagging scheme which is most useful for routing applications. The above mentioned signs don't make up restrictions in routing, just may reduce the estimated time at a traffic light node for bicycles. So it really could be useful as additional tag at the node highway=traffic_signals as already wrote.
I really would recommend to read the wiki-page to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway=traffic_signals#Traffic_signals_for_cyclists
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Comment from brainwad
Having skimmed the thread you started, I agree that the specific tagging of restriction:bicycle=give_way is pretty bad, and would welcome something better. But I agree with the person who said this: "Main problem here, is that while I dislike relations it may be tricky to guess to which road this red turn right applies, maybe relation may be needed
for a full clarity." They are right that in general it's often unclear which way(s) are the ones for which the traffic light can be ignored, especially since in fully-tagged intersections, the traffic_signals node comes before the intersection of the ways.
Ways (4)
- Schlossgasse (922118864), v1
- Schweighofstrasse (922118865), v1
- Schlossgasse (24735488), v15
- Schweighofstrasse (371177602), v10
Relations (15)
- 12491082, v1
- 12491083, v1
- 12491084, v1
- 12491085, v1
- 12491086, v1
- 12491087, v1
- 12491088, v1
- 12491089, v1
- Bus 89: Zürich, Heizenholz → Sihlcity (34764), v174
- Bus 32: Zürich, Holzerhurd → Strassenverkehrsamt (1152896), v108
- Bus 32: Zürich, Strassenverkehrsamt → Holzerhurd (1152897), v87
- Bus 89: Zürich, Sihlcity → Heizenholz (2792435), v57
- Bus N5: Bellevue → Schmiede Wiedikon (7871932), v39
- Bus 89: Zürich, Bahnhof Altstetten → Sihlcity (9788151), v16
- Bus 89: Zürich, Sihlcity → Bahnhof Altstetten (9788152), v16
Nodes (8)
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