Changeset: 117922060
#Donegal #osmIRL
Closed by Boggedy
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (18360 en) |
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hashtags | #Donegal;#osmIRL |
source | Maxar Premium Imagery |
Discussion
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Comment from SomeoneElse
Hello,
Just wondered if the deletion of the EDs inc https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/12490411 was deliberate?
Best Regards,
Andy -
Comment from Boggedy
I found there were 2 sets of EDs in Donegal or more properly 2 sets of admin_level=9 boundaries where there should only be one. Every part of the land area should also be part of an ED ...right out to the middle of Lough Foyle.
There is a separate problem in NI ....they have not had admin_level=9 status since 1923 but at least they are not duplicated there.
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Comment from Boggedy
@SomeoneElse @Boggedy test notify
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Comment from SomeoneElse
I got the message ...
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Comment from Boggedy
I didn't get any message, maybe only the comment creator does.??
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Comment from Boggedy
Admin Level boundaries should be unique and should be part of the NUTS/LAU stack for a territory. Brexit won't change anything other than the names of the statistical codes...whenever they get around to that.
This is the NI stack
https://www.ons.gov.uk/methodology/geography/ukgeographies/eurostat#northern-ireland
and the lacuna in NI is that EDs were abolished in 1923 and replaced by similar "Wards" . Tagging EDs with admin levels is incorrect These wards are the correct LAU2 / Admin Level 8 or 9 entity for NI. However as the EDs were used for census data in NI as late as the 1950s the EDs should be converted to boundary=historic from boundary=admin, admin level deleted and from dates of 1850 to date 1923 added. I'll leave that lacuna to my colleagues in NI and they are welcome to contact me on the subject any time...the lacuna has been discussed on talk-ie going back to around 2014/5.
Separately I see that OSMF Ireland is intending to convene a Boundaries working group under @Mackerski but I have not heard anything about its activities...glad to help there if asked. See
https://www.openstreetmap.ie/osm-ireland-working-groups/
Also see > https://www.ons.gov.uk/methodology/geography/ukgeographies/eurostat
and
https://www.townlands.ie/mappers/
I have been on boundaries for a long time.
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Comment from SomeoneElse
(re messages) you should get everyone else's messages but not your own. Maybe check the email address you have registered at osm.org (or your spam box?).
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Comment from SomeoneElse
(re boundaries) I've long since given up understanding what boundaries are mapped in Ireland (either side of the border), but I saw these versions disappear so I thought that I'd better mention it :)
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Comment from Boggedy
If they were simple then Poor old Dermot wouldn't have agreed to chair a working group on the issue. There is a profusion of historic boundaries ...some of which have not been abolished in law since the foundation of the state over 100 years ago and they may well need excision from the base map and a bulk import into openhistoricalmap instead along with a tagging exercise to clean them up a tad.
The current profusion causes an undue amount of JOSM validation errors for my taste. It is a hindrance to the betterment of the actuality...to coin an aphorism.
This > https://openhistoricalmap.org/history#map=8/54.030/-7.806&layers=O&date=1900&daterange=1800,2022 ins
That would be my preferred solution anyway if Dermo reaches out for a natter on the matter. @RoryM may wish to bulk import them into his invaluable townlands.ie site at some stage pre or post tag cleanup as well and I always defer to Rorys wishes.
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Comment from b-unicycling
I had added the EDs in NI and some parts of the Republic for the Sensible Code company last year, but if I recall, we had long discussions in the Telegram group and I had put a date on all those boundaries to mark them as not current. Therefore, I wasn't sure how there could be duplicates. There were even changes between 1901 and 1911, but I think we settled on me using 1911 then, bc Sensible Code wanted to use it for their software for the 1911 census. The launch is available to watch here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCKcBRix-bg.
It would have been better to put it all into openhistoricalmaps, but I did not know of its existence then, and I still don't know how to use JOSM for it. -
Comment from Boggedy
An admin boundary is _always_ current and everything else is boundary=historic. However EDs are not admin boundaries in NI. Even worse...the nomenclature itself forked c 1993 with DEDs becoming EDs in the south from that time. EDs created since 1983 in the South, as a City boundary revision for example were never a DED but the vast majority are.
The same principle applies to constituencies, the current ones are boundary=political and others are also historic. I am not aware of the status of civil parishes in NI but they are still legally extant down here as are baronies.
Cleaning all this up will take some time and I pinged Mackerski to weigh in. It has to be dealt with soon as JOSM generates too many validation errors now because of this boundary profusion and this is an obstacle to good editing.
My last mesoscale task was 3 years back when i did local electoral boundaries and i had nothing like the errors i see nowadays, sometimes 100s, almost all boundaries.
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Comment from b-unicycling
If there is a way to export the 1911 (D)EDs to openhistoricalmaps, pls let me know, so we can save that work somehow, before deleting it from OSM. Anyway, thanks for taking on that huge tidying task.
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Comment from Boggedy
I do not really propose to delete anything from OSM and please be aware that in the vast majority of cases a 1911 ED is still a 2022 ED and that boundaries have not changed since for most of then, but I propose to 1. ...systemically...clean the data up tagging wise while in situ. 2. decide what boundaries we want to 'archive and what we want to keep' ...and why and 3 ensure that any boundary that we remove has a home to go to ,..EG to OHM . This is a complex issue best left to a working group and anybody contributing here would be equally welcome in any such group which has to act transparently and fairly and which has to satisfy OSMUK and OSMIE both
The end result should be a fully consistent NUTS/LAU stack which is what admin boundaries are. A consistent political stack is needed in parallel, perhaps a soupcon of arcane ones like Civil Parishes and the rest are history.
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