OpenStreetMap

#CrimeaІsUkraine #DWG #CrimeaMap #КримЦеУкраїна #ИхТамНет

Posted by Artiom Komolov on 5 December 2018 in English (English)

The Ukrainian community is concerned about the possible negative impact on the project as a whole, the emergence of lawsuits from users of data and the subsequent decline of the project, and therefore restores the borders of Ukraine to the internationally recognized status. The recent decision of DWG ( https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes/DWG_2018-11-14_Crimea ) neglects the wide recognition of Crimea as an integral part of Ukraine expressed by numerous governments and international organizations (in particular, UN General Assembly Resolution 68/262 http://www.un.org/en/ga/68/resolutions.shtml / https://undocs.org/en/A/RES/68/262 ). DWG actions directed to cut off Crimea from the borders of Ukraine are considered to be inadequate to the interests of the project and are not recognized by law. Any blockages (bans) aimed against members who restored the border of Ukraine to the widely internationally recognized status will be seen as unjustified pressure on the entire community and usurpation of power in the OSM. It also violates OSM guidelines in respect of using national boundaries: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Boundaries#National

P.S. “changing names or country information would require consensus from both the Ukrainian and Russian communities. It is unlikely that any such edit proposals will be able to achieve this.” (с) DWG //

Moreover, according to clause 4, a consensus should be reached between the Ukrainian and Russian communities on changing information about countries. There is no consensus - there is no reason to separate the Crimea from Ukraine.

#CrimeaІsUkraine #DWG #CrimeaMap #КримЦеУкраїна #ИхТамНет

Comment from rorym 🏳️‍🌈 on 5 December 2018 at 08:20

OSM has a long standing rule of drawing borders where "de facto physical control" is. By this rule, Crimea should be marked as being in Russia. I'm not sure what your suggesting replacing that rule with. "UN resolution" might sound nice but (i) it's heavily biased to a few former countries, (ii) please tell me where the borders of Isreal is according to this criteria (should we use UN Resolution 181? Why not?)

There are some proposals to allow the mapping of "the border of country A according to country B" (#1, #2). Assisting in this process, with mapping, with software support, can be very useful toward solving this issue. I think we all sympathize with the people of Ukraine.

Comment from Artiom Komolov on 5 December 2018 at 10:22

Dear Rory, many thanks for trying to explain your position.

As far as you might now from OSM Wiki, we have the 'boundaries' tag for the purpose of mapping administrative boundaries. In respective Wiki page it's clearly stated that 'For the sake of clarity, only political entities listed on the ISO 3166 standard are to be considered countries.'

If you will have a moment, please take a look take a look at this standard. It contains no codes for the so-called 'Republic of Crimea' and/or so-called 'Federal City of Sevastopol', which are internationally recognized as part of Ukraine (that is why I am referring to UN Resolution 68/262). Both Autonomous Republic of Crimea and Sevastopol do have codes in Ukraine's entry in ISO 3166-2 (UA-43 and UA-40 respectively).

You might also mention 'Ground truth' principle. However, I guess, it is also not applicable to this issue as far as it applies to POIs, but not to administrative boundaries.

Comment from rorym 🏳️‍🌈 on 5 December 2018 at 10:29

(i) please define "internationally recognized" (ii) Country borders in OSM aren't based on the ISO-3166 standard and how they lay it out, they are based on "de facto physical control". The "on the ground" rule also apply to the name of towns/cities, not just PoIs. An edit way in Cyprus 10+ years ago over place names is where this rule comes from.

Comment from Artiom Komolov on 5 December 2018 at 11:07

  1. Sure, let me google this for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_recognition. In respect of Crimea the Resolution affirmed the territorial integrity of Ukraine within its internationally recognized borders.

  2. Country borders are based on the standard as it is clearly stated in OSM Wiki. Please take a look at the above mentioned page again.

Comment from rorym 🏳️‍🌈 on 5 December 2018 at 12:41

According to Wikipedia some countries recognise that Crimea is in Russia. And some (most) don't. So what is the outcome of "international recognition" in this case? That's a problem with "international recognition", it can be ambiguous.

The OSM wiki does not say the international borders are based on a standard (which isn't a standard for borders anyway), it only says "what counts as a country". Regardless, OSM policy is not defined by the wiki.

Comment from Artiom Komolov on 5 December 2018 at 15:06

Dear Rory, Please stop phrase-mongering. A law doesn't have to be supported by all members of a parliament - it will adopted when majority votes for it. The same principle applies to the UN Resolution and it was supported by majority of states (including UK, by the way, which is a place of your origin and place of incorporation of the OpenStreetMap Foundation - have you heard that your motherland does not recognise Crimea as a part of Russia and even implements penalties for suck UK companies who does?).

I respect your right to believe that Autonomous Republic of Crimea was not annexed by Russia and a real referendum has taken place.

Unfortunately, according to Ukrainian legislation that has been in act at that period, Autonomous Republic of Crimea (neither any other region of Ukraine) could not proclaim its independence basing on local referendum. Instead a quasi-referendum took place which was not officially declared by the government of Ukraine. Instead a Russian invasion has took place (this fact was confirmed by first people of Russia in lots of media interviews).

So please, as I said earlier, stop phrase-mongering and either start (or pretend to start) a real conversation based on facts, international law and OSM internal rules and policies. Otherwise I guess it makes no sense to continue our nice conversation.

Comment from redsteakraw on 5 December 2018 at 15:09

OSM isn't the UN it works on ground truth not the hoes and wishes of pompus bureaucrats. Change the ground truth or forget about it. Physical control is an objective measure that resolves disputes when push comes to shove. Taiwan and China, India and Pakistan, Ukraine and Russia. If OSM gives in then what you have endless no win disputes that come down to opinions rather than objective facts.

Comment from rorym 🏳️‍🌈 on 5 December 2018 at 15:14

Artiom Komolov, do you not see the irony in saying Ireland is in the UK while complaining about Crimea being shown as part of Russia?

Comment from Artiom Komolov on 5 December 2018 at 15:30

@Rory, No, I don't see any irony here. The only thing I see here is my mistake and please excuse me for that, it was not an intentional mistake. Unfortunately, I guess, now I have to correct one of my statements above which has to sound in the following way: "including Ireland, a place of your origin, UK, a place of incorporation of the OpenStreetMap Foundation, which does not recognise Crimea as a part of Russia and even implements penalties for such UK companies who does". Do I have to mention additionally that Germany also does not recognise Crimea as a part of Russia and supported mentioned UN Resolution?

@redsteakraw, please take a look on two links mentioned above. They are about the 'ground truth' principle.

Comment from redsteakraw on 5 December 2018 at 15:48

@Artiom Komolov a UN proclamation is not the same thing as ground truth. I don't care what bureaucrats say, show me Ukrainian government presence in Crimea, military, law enforcement, courts? It is all Russian and given the Crimean Bridge the physical control is cemented as well as vital transportation ting Russia to Crimea. Given there was no military fight aside from Ukrainian Boats being humiliated I wouldn't even call the borders disputed. If Ukraine isn't willing to fight for it back then there is no dispute.

Comment from Alexee on 5 December 2018 at 17:27

@redsteakraw, please, catch an example: try to fly to Crimea from any country except Russia. You can't, because it's forbidden. This is a form of on ground control. Your proclamation about government presence, military, fighting and so on is non-sense, just because all these thing are not indicators of a territory ownershipping

Comment from Artiom Komolov on 5 December 2018 at 17:37

@redsteakraw, is it so hard for an experienced mapper to get back to OSM wiki, finally read two articles (look, I've even brought them here to you again):

  • about national boundaries and why do we mark them according to ISO standarts which contains no information about Crimea being a part of Russia
  • why 'ground truth' principle is not applicable in this case.

And please do not reply unless you read these two articles carefully.

Comment from rorym 🏳️‍🌈 on 5 December 2018 at 19:42

Please consult this wiki page: Template:OSM-anarchist, which is older than the boundaries page: "I don't give a flying monkey's for tag voting, automatic changebots, endless discussions, categories, or any of that crap, but prefer to get on and actually do stuff.". The existance of something written on the wiki isn't definitive, and isn't the slam dunk case you seem to think. (But here we go, since 2011, the Good Practice wiki page has said: "Don't map your local legislation, if they are not bound to objects in reality"

Comment from redsteakraw on 6 December 2018 at 12:35

@Artiom Komolov ISO is used for which countries can have borders on OSM not for the borders themselves. Since Russia is an ISO recognized country there is no conflict. That being said I personally have issues with that but can see why it is there to prevent someone from just claiming land willy nilly creating new countries. But if push comes to shove and there is a conflict with that rule it should change as well but in the mean time it is fine.

@Alexee I heard there are tour buses going to Crimea from Belarus. The Crimean Bridge also makes it more connected to Russia now than any other countries even by your own admission. How is it not part off Russia now?

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