OpenStreetMap

Adamant1's Diary Comments

Diary Comments added by Adamant1

Post When Comment
Lights about 1 month ago

<There’s luminous= to show a feature itself is emitting light

Not to be pedantic or anything, but adding a tag like luminous=whatever to something like a street lamp seems super redundant even if it’s technically true. Really, I can’t think of a scenario even slightly related to this diary entry where it wouldn’t be. Same goes for something like adding the light_source tag to a roadway. Honestly I’m kind of surprised there’s upwards of 67,000 uses of light_source=lantern in combination with highway=whatever. Like what else would the light source be on the average highway? And that’s putting aside that “lantern” is an extremely meaningless way to define a light source.

<This has taken me to the point of looking at adding night lighting to the tops of power poles or rotating beacons on top of airport towers.

Personally what I do in those situations is add street_lamp=yes + highway=street_lamp to the already existing node for whatever it is (a power pole or whatever). There’s some street_lamp:whatever namespace tags that can be used for tagging other stuff specific things related to the street lamp in a way that won’t conflict with tags that already exist on the POI, but I tend to leave them out myself because I’m not a super big fan of namespaces. They are an option though. (I wouldn’t worry to much if they render on the main style or not in the meantime. Custom OverPass Turbo queries usually work good in such situations).

Should I import Microsoft building footprints? 2 months ago

I’ve used the building footprints in certain areas around where I map to “rough draft” the amount of housing there before adding addresses and then gone back over to “fix” the building areas once the addresses were added. I think it works good in cases like that, where your using the footprints for a specific purpose and have a plan in place ahead of time to review/adjust the areas latter. I wouldn’t suggest doing an adhoc, mass-import of the building footprints though. The data is just to off to justify it.

Continuation of my frustration about the OSM Carto style 3 months ago

Thanks for continuing to update the community about where things are at with this. Parsing through the various communication channels, meeting meetings, and other obscure back corners to figure out if something is moving forward or how can be extremely daunting. A lot of it really seems like obscurity by design. Either way though, it’s good to see someone “in the community” or whatever is still keeping tabs on things and participating in whatever backroom discussions are currently going on.

Openstreetmap-Carto – Democracy Or anarchy? 4 months ago

One thing I found particularly troubling was the project’s inability to acquire and retain talent in the area of cartographic design

It’s possible there were conversations about in private that I wasn’t privy to, but from what I remember most of the reason they weren’t able to retain developers from like 2016 to 2018 was the lack of a clear direction, general aimlessness when it came to merging PRs, and the large amount of infighting going on between the maintainers.

All of the people doing development, including myself, pretty much left after Imagico and Kocio-pl got into it over the direction of the project a few years ago. There was never anyone that I saw who said they weren’t going to contribute anymore just because of the direction the cartographic design was going in. whatever was going in though. It was always due to the other issues.

Kocio-Pl was actually doing a pretty good job of recruiting and retaining people before Imagico came back and started the whole thing over there being to many POIs. Plenty of issues related to cartographic design were being discussed and dealt with in the meantime to. So I really don’t get where Imagico got the idea that cartographic stuff wasn’t being worked on. If anything he was the one that killed things. IMO the diary entry comes off like an attempt to whitewash his role in the projects decline. At least post 2016.

Openstreetmap-Carto – Democracy Or anarchy? 4 months ago

I’ve ported osm carto to vector tiles. I’ve run lots of tile servers. Lots of people with lots of opinions here. Typing into the comment box is so easy…

Good for you. Really. I’ve done plenty of development on the style myself. Nowhere have I claimed it was easy or that anyone should just push a button and magically make vector happen out of thin air or whatever. I really don’t appreciate being treated like that’s my position.

It seems like you and a couple of other people in this discussion can’t accept constructive feedback without taking it extremely personally. That’s fine. I can understand it, but you aren’t going to win anyone over with the passive aggressiveness or by talking down to people. Treating me like I’m an in-experienced child who is just complaining because I don’t understand how things work in the real world or whatever doesn’t really isn’t doing yourself or the platform any favors.

Obviously all this is more complicated then just pushing a button, but the inherent complication involved in software development isn’t a valid excuse for the lack of movement on vectors tiles or anything else. Really, it shouldn’t be that hard to give a coherent response that doesn’t involve talking down to the person your responding to or using strawmen.

He said that he can completely ignore new tagging because people voting for it doesn’t make it law

The whole thing is just circular and there isn’t a coherent, consistent policy about when to render something and when not to. One day the existence of a proposal and support in iD Editor works in the favor of rendering a tag, the next they don’t. If you get two maintainers in a room together there’s almost zero chance of them agreeing on what exactly the standards are. Plus each one has their own little side projects/personal preferences that they are trying to push in the meantime.

Like Imagico doesn’t want any new POIs to be rendered because he has supposedly “better” ways of rendering them that are never going to be implement. So he intentionally stalls out any issues that have to do with rendering new POIs. A good example of that is adding rendering for sports pitches. The issue was discussed for like 9 years, was approved by multiple maintainers, and had a PR for it. Then right before it could be merged Imagico created a blog post about an alternative rendering scheme that he came up with and shot the PR down. That was like In the meantime he hasn’t done jack to implement his idea. So there will never be a way to tell pitches apart from each other, at least not on the main style.

If you want an interesting read check out https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3651. Imagico did the same kind of circular obfuscation to shut that down that he’s done everywhere else. #3635 “Too many icons” was opened because he asked for it. Then he used the discussion as an excuse to not render POIs on pitches while proposing an alternative option on his blog that he never implemented. From what I remember he did the same thing with name rendering on bays and a bunch of other things. That seems to be his motius operandi and no one seems to have a problem with it for some weird reason.

Openstreetmap-Carto – Democracy Or anarchy? 4 months ago

Seriously, “lets insult people so they will work for free on what I want to have” is not effective, as far as I know.

@Mateusz Konieczny I can understand why you would see my framing of the issues as false, misleading, insulting and unhelpful or whatever. Your allowed to have your opinion. That’s fine. Here’s the thing though, as you know I’ve spent plenty of time contributing to the style, have been involved in a lot of the conversations on GitHub related to it, and that’s my honest assessment of why a lot of things aren’t moved forward in a timely manor. The style is “just good enough” and getting it to a better state, like implementing vector tiles, isn’t super easy. I’m aware of that, but it just means there’s a massive amount of complacency, Etc. Etc. all around. Including on my end. That’s just the facts and how it goes with projects that are later in their life cycles like this one.

On the opposite end though it’s rather insulting, false, misleading, and unhelpful to make tokenistic comments like “fork it if you don’t like it” or “if it’s so easy you do it then” instead of just being honest with people about where the project is at. Nothing is going to be resolved or moved forward by repeatedly making unempathetic, handwavy comments every time someone brings up an issue.

Sure, maybe the way I framed things is a little crass, but there’s plenty of examples on GitHub where I’ve been measured and given constructive feedback about a lot of these same issues. You know what? I wasn’t treated any better and nothing come out of it. In the interim if someone who has actively worked on the project and contributed to a lot of these discussions can’t have an opinion, negative or otherwise, then no one can. It’s been like what, 5 years since the idea of rendering vectors was first floated on the issue tracker? Seriously, how much time should pass without it being worked before people are allowed to say the lack of movement on it might be due to compliancy? 10 years? 20?

As a side to that, I can guarantee that if I developed iOS software and called their Developer Support line because I had an issue with their developer tools or whatever that I wouldn’t be told that everything I do is crap and that I should just F off if I don’t like how they do things. Yet that’s literally how everyone in this discussion (including me) has been and always will be treated when they raise issues they have with things.

Sure, maybe my approach to this was a little ruder then it could have been. These are chronic issues though. Ones that multiple people (besides me) have brought up and that aren’t going to magically get resolved if everyone just acts like toady, insincere, suck ups to the people in charge while they get the run around on the backend. Sorry.

Openstreetmap-Carto – Democracy Or anarchy? 4 months ago

<OSM would be far better off if you left the project altogether.

All your doing with comments like that is proving the point that this whole thing is autocratic and that the people who have influence are incapable of accepting feedback. Sure, it’s not a democracy, but if it’s not there should at least be a middle ground between it being a democracy and an outright despotic system where people with differing opinions are bullied or publicly shamed into not contributing anymore.

There can’t be any one map style that does everything - it would be impossible to understand.

No one expects the map style to do everything. It should at least be able to do more then a paper map can though. It’s not impossible to cater to a lot or most of the tags and still have the map be legible. I think your map style walks that line well. In the meantime no one that I’m aware has opened any issues that openstreetmap-carto renders to many POIs and the discussion about it has essentially been dead for a couple of years.

I’d image there’d be some more issues and discussions related to the map being un-readable if it was an issue people actually have, at least outside of a few “traditional cartography wonks” or whatever. In the meantime, if anything the complaint is that it doesn’t render enough things. I guess at the end of the day it comes down to if the style should prioritize the preferences a few cartography nerds or the broader community of users who don’t ultimately care if it looks like a traditional map from the 18 hundreds or not.

Openstreetmap-Carto – Democracy Or anarchy? 4 months ago

most of those doing the heavy lifting on the map styling side do so because they have an interest in cartography, and cartography is, among other things, the art of reducing things to make a good map.

That’s air, but it’s also ludicrous to expect a modern, internet age map like OSMs to confirm to 17 hundreds standards of cartography that might work with a paper but probably won’t for a digital one. Even an otherwise fairly concretive style like Google Maps has been increasingly complex over the years. They even adopted a few things that were suggested on the Carto Style’s GitHub page. Also, I think it would be worth putting more faith in people who use the map and their ability to “figure it out.” People aren’t stupid and it’s fine if there’s a slight learning curve.

For one, do not believe in the panacea of “vector tiles” being bandied about by everyone and their dog

No one is saying there should be vector tiles for people’s dogs. There’s real issues with the current rendering that could and should be resolved with vector tiles. Sure, it would introduce other problems, but that’s just how software development works. You of all people should understand that.

Adamant1, your contributions to OSM have never caused anything but strife

That’s a weirdly hostile and personal take. I have my criticisms of your behavior and how you treated me over the issues I had with SteveA, but I’ve never gone as far to say everything you do is shit and that you just cause problems. Even in cases where I’ve been harsh, I had good intentions. I never get that feeling from anything you’ve criticized me over. I think we should be able to criticize each other without taking the rhetoric to that toxic, and personal of a level. In the meantime I’ve done a lot of work improving the map in northern California over the years. Maybe you think it’s meritless, but I don’t.

Your here because like a truffle hog to truffles you are attracted to controversy

Not that I think you care, but the reason I’m here is because I’ve contributed to the Carto style before and I’m genuinely saddened by the turn it’s taken, the projects stagnation, and how people’s complaints aren’t being taken seriously. Much like the whole row over racism toward Chinese people, I didn’t cause that controversy and I didn’t participate in the discussion about it purely because I’m attracted to drama.

The rare things I comment on, and I rarely participate in discussions, I do so because they are things I genuinely have an issue with. I’ve already told you that in a private message though. It’s rather weird your unwilling to get the point. You really love to use me as a way to deflect from the actual issues in discussions for some reason. Seriously Woodpeck, you and SteveA both need get over it whatever hair you both have about me. I’m sick of asking you both to. In the meantime do you really think your constant harassment of me in every discussion we are both involved in helps find solutions to anything doesn’t create maximum tension?

Openstreetmap-Carto – Democracy Or anarchy? 4 months ago

<Awesome. Look forward to your patch @Adamant1 given that it’s so easy.

“Maah, if it’s so easy why don’t you do it then!”

Passive aggressive, snide, and dismissive responses like that are exactly why diary entries like this one and so much frustration among users about the current affairs exists.

It’s ridiculous that people who have such an inordinate amount of influence like you and Woodpeck can’t be bothered to take honest, good faithed feedback seriously or without having a holier-than-thou elitist attitude about it. Using smugness and faux humor to cope with the fact that a lot of things about the project are in disrepair due to age or neglect will only go so far, and IMO it’s long past that point. It really shouldn’t be that hard to get an actual, none condescending response to criticism.

Openstreetmap-Carto – Democracy Or anarchy? 4 months ago

<I just want trees to be rendered individually! Jillions upon jillions of them.

I’m pretty sure I suggested trading trees for street lamps once. From what I remember the suggestion was ignored. I still think it would be a good idea, but sadly one that will likely never be implemented.

Openstreetmap-Carto – Democracy Or anarchy? 4 months ago

<The map style already suffers from displaying too much, not too little.

Some of that could be resolved by implementing vectors tiles and allowing the map to be rendered at z20. Both seem to be none starters though. It’s been like 5 years since the Migration to vector tiles issue was opened and it ‘s gone literally nowhere since then. In the meantime I don’t think the issue about how to deal with there being to many POIs has had a comment in at least a year.

While I agree with the criticism that the map style currently renders to many things in dense areas, I don’t think it is fair use as a reason not to add things when there aren’t even steps being made deal with it. Like bgo_eiu said it’s impossible to even get the rendering of POI removed.

<The reason why development has grind to a halt is that everyone - like you - has their pet thing they want - like parcel lockers - and giving everyone what they want will lead to map that causes only headache.

That being the reason why development has ground to a halt isn’t supported by the evidence. Rendering vector tiles isn’t anyone’s pet project, but like I’ve said it hasn’t gone anywhere. Same goes for the font thing bgo-eiu brought up. There should at least be an ability to implement basic maintenance issues/upgrades. There isn’t even that much.

There’s also been plenty of times where people, including maintainers, agreed to a certain change in an issue and then things were stalled out for years once the discussion moved to a PR. It shouldn’t take three years to merge a PR for something that there was already wide agreement by everyone, including maintainers, to implement.

BTW, calling the parcel locker thing a pet project is rather dismissiveness when it was approved and has broad usage. Maybe not in Germany or the United Kingdom, but that doesn’t make the tag a personal endeavor that wouldn’t benefit the wider community if it was rendered. Even it didn’t though, Polish mappers aren’t a niche community by any means and there’s no legitimate reason not to support rendering a tag that’s only used in a country with 37.95 million people. I’m sure there are plenty of things rendered that mainly only people from the United Kindgom or Germany care about. No one has a problem with it. But in this case it’s just people from Poland and the United States who want the tag rendered so it’s a niche pet project.

<Running projects like this on pure democracy is unlikely to work well and I am not aware of successful examples.

While I don’t disagree that a project run as a “pure” democracy would work, open source projects that allow contributions by outsiders inherently have a democratic component to them due to the nature of the thing. Otherwise it should just either be completely closed source or not allow people to contribute pull requests.

No one here is going to pretend that Imagico knows everything about everything related to OSM and map styles. So there should at least be some willingness on his part to field feedback given to him by “outsiders.” Like with the font issue, bgo_eiu clearly knows more about the topic then Imagico does. Democracy or not, it would be ridiculous if the response to what bgo_eiu has to say about it was along the lines of “No one cares about your pet project brah. this isn’t a democracy. Fork the project if you don’t like the font we are using!”

In the meantime I can almost guarantee that there would be zero negative impact on the style or wider community if the font was changed. Same goes for most of the issues that are currently stalled out. At this point there’s zero reason the style doesn’t render vector tiles except for pure complacency and laziness.

Updated contributor stats - the end of maps.me 8 months ago

<I have hidden a few comments towards the tail end of this discussion as they veered decidedly off-topic and into personal attacks. I’ve tried to also hide comments referring to hidden comments so as not to break context too much.

Thank you

Updated contributor stats - the end of maps.me 9 months ago

Maps.Me wasn’t an OSM editor. It was a navigation app that had an “edit” button. Editor engagement, while being considered at some point, have never been done, so people just tested the feature and were satisfied with the result

That makes sense. I don’t think it’s 4 month map update cycle, or whatever it was, helped much either. My guess is that most people thought they didn’t actually contribute anything because it took so long for their edits to be displayed on the map.

By the way, it also brought users that have contributed tens of thousands POIs, so dismissing the app because of the long tail is missing the point. I’m pretty sure iD has a similar user distribution.

That was my thought. Maps.Me is just an essay scape goat at this point. It will probably take at least a few years to find out if that was the cause of contributor decline or not, but I doubt it is/was though. Like Mateusz Konieczny said in his dairy entry, iD by number of distinct users dropped from all-time-height in 2021 and it also declined from 2018 to 2019. As well as JOSM edit volume going down from 996 million to 905 million. So there’s clearly wider systemic issues then just the loss of Maps.Me users. The only thing that makes sense to me is that people are being turned off of contributing by other users. Since a basic need for community interaction is the only commonality between the various editors and that’s been my experience. I’m open to other theories though.

2021 editor usage stats - some interesting parts 9 months ago

<One of my current project is making analysis like this - to show lifetime of many users at all in a graphical form. I am curious who is using SC - new people? New people who become more involved - or stay on SC forever? People mapping already?

Awesome. I’d be really interested to know what you find out. Hopefully you’ll write up a diary entry or something once you’ve analyzed the data.

2021 editor usage stats - some interesting parts 9 months ago

@Mateusz Konieczny is there a way to tell how many users first time contributors to OsmAnd, StreetComplete, or some other software become long-term users or at least contribute more then a single edit, or is that something that’s impossible to tell? Like say could we compare the retention rates of OsmAnd to StreetComplete and RapidiD somehow beyond just the raw number of users/contributions each one has?

Updated contributor stats - the end of maps.me 9 months ago

Outside of the rather useless back and forth with SimonPoole, I’d be interested to know what the specific cause of people who used Map.Me not converting into longer term editors is. I’d find it hard to believe that it was purely something Maps.Me was doing to turn off their users from contributing to OSM beyond a single edit. Since it would be in their interest, as much as OSMs more broadly, to convert them into multiple edit users. Maybe it’s not systemic issues with how people are treated on here.

I’m more then willing to be wrong on that, but I find it hard to believe that Maps.Me was just so inherently flowed as a piece of software that turned people off from contributing more to the project purely on it’s own, due to how crappy it was. I only used a couple of times myself, but it didn’t seem that horrible.

Whereas, on the flip side no one is going to disagree that the OSM community writ large isn’t very accommodating to new comers. How we behave and how inventing we are toward new contributors or not is the only thing we have control over also. We never could convert people who used Maps.Me into longer-term users. So I think it’s important to reflect on our behavior in general as a community due to that if alone if nothing else. It’s better then throwing our hands up and scapegoating individual pieces of software that we zero say in the development or usage of. I’m not singling anyone out about or trying to pick a fight over it either. I’d just like the platform to be able to retain users and the community as a whole to work on it’s flaws. That’s it.

[OSMOpinion] STOP discrimination against China and Chinese mappers in OSM community 12 months ago

Some people making statements that are simply untrue Some other people making statements that (a) don’t really add anything to the argument and (b) are just flat-out racist bigotry.

@SomeoneElse I was under the impression from discussions I had read that the DWG deleted some paths in national forests because forest service employees asked them to. If that’s not the case, then I apologize for miss-characterizing things. Not to excuse it, but in general there probably wouldn’t be as much bad information put out if there was a single place where things are discussed. It’s hard to get facts 100% correct when discussions happen over multiple venues though. It’s a lot like playing telephone. In the meantime, I doubt anyone in this discussion is intentionally trying to spread diss-information. At least I know I’m not.

[OSMOpinion] STOP discrimination against China and Chinese mappers in OSM community 12 months ago

fact that Adamant1 tries to make it sound problematic is just another example of his pathological craving for dispute.

Your comment is obviously projection. I was more then clear to Mateusz Konieczny that my issue has nothing to do with what ultimately happens to do the data, but the way you and certain other people deal with different situations rhetorically depending on who or what country is involved in the dispute. Obviously your not out there accusing every company of being rapists, just Facebook for some bizarre reason. Nor do you make political comments about people in every dispute. Just from what I can ones that involve Chinese people. While I can’t read your mind as to what your reason is, my guess is that it’s less about the data and more just that you have bigoted beliefs about certain companies, countries, and people that you don’t have for others. Essentially anyone that isn’t German or otherwise a part of the extremely small group of people that you aren’t prejudiced towards.

I could be wrong about that, but at least in the meantime I’m not accusing companies of being rapists on random mailing list discussions or writing inflammatory diary entries that are getting attention on Hacker News like you have been. I’m mostly minding my own business, not getting mentioned on news sites for the BS I say. I wasn’t the one that took a swing at you in the GitHub issue a while back like you did to me either. Same goes for the repeated nonsense with you and SteveA. Which only escalated to the point that it did because of your love of and inability to deal with disputes. Same goes for this mess of a discussion. So spare me the “tea kettle calling the pot black” deflecting nonsense.

[OSMOpinion] STOP discrimination against China and Chinese mappers in OSM community 12 months ago

I don’t hate the commies I pity them they are like children that fear the parent coming in. It is pathetic in a sense but none of them will ever admit it because they lie to themselves as that is one of the only things that keep them going and functioning in the world.

Is what I was talking about.

redsteakraw, it is really easy to insult people living under oppressive regime that they do not sacrifice their lives to change it.

I appreciate that your willing to say something about the insults from coming from the Anti-Chinese side of the discussion. It’s disappointing that SomeoneElse isn’t, but whatever.

[OSMOpinion] STOP discrimination against China and Chinese mappers in OSM community 12 months ago

If they would be fine with deletion of paths in a bird sanctuary on request by government - both in China and Germany, then there would not be double standard.

The double standard is in the rhetoric used in the meantime and the way the process plays out depending on the country or people involved.

To quote redsteakraw “I don’t hate the commies I pity them they are like children that fear the parent coming in. It is pathetic in a sense but none of them will ever admit it because they lie to themselves as that is one of the only things that keep them going and functioning in the world.”

That is some seriously bigoted and racist nonsense that should have been officially condomed on the spot, but wasn’t, because SomeoneElse was to busy saying I needed to moderate my tone for some reason that I’m not even clear on.

So this has nothing to do with what ultimately happens to the data involved in the various disputes. What it has to do with is that the DWG can’t even meet the extremely low bar of saying “hey, don’t call people pathetic commies” for some reason. Yet in the meantime SomeoneElse is perfectly fine saying I need to moderate my tone over literally nothing. So clearly dealing with bigoted racist nonsense towards Chinese people isn’t at all on his or the DWGs priority list. I just happen to be the one pointing it out. When I should moderate my tone and listen more or some crap instead.