Changeset: 50943658
Bilingual tagging (Welsh/English) added to Aberystwyth highway=* ways as it says in WikiOSM
Closed by msevilla00
Tags
created_by | Level0 v1.2 |
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Discussion
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Comment from msevilla00
I edited using this overpass query:
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/qSr
and following this OSM Wiki advice:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
and as you could see in Streets:
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/BVAjyV5Yt6hediIk7Lqv4w -
Comment from Mike Baggaley
Hi, it is incorrect to a set the name field in the format "Welsh Name/English Name". If a name has two language variants, use name:cy for the Welsh and name:en for the English, and choose one of the two names for the name field, preferably the one which is the more commonly used. Many of these roads already have name:cy and name:en.
Please review your change and update as appropriate.
Thanks,
Mike -
Comment from msevilla00
I disagree with you.
If you please read the wiki you will read how to tag in multilingual situations.
First, "name" tag could be use as you can see in street sings [1]. You can check on Mapillary how are labelled [2][3]
Second, "Welsh name / English name" label for "name" tag is recommended for a neutral or bilingual version in Wales [4].
Moreover, from the legal point of view, in Wales, in general, and in Ceredigion Council, in particular, Welsh is as important as English [5]. Even Ordnance Survey has labelled some streets of Aberystwyth in both languages in their maps! [6]
In conclusion, it is not necessary to change my editions because are appropriates.
Bests
Miguel
[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name
[2] https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/BVAjyV5Yt6hediIk7Lqv4w
[3] https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/j1ngoo9wTxbfXfnMdcEGVA
[4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales "In the name field, a neutral or a bilingual version can be entered."
[5] http://www.legislation.gov.uk/mwa/2011/1/contents
[6] http://map.ceredigion.gov.uk/connect/?mapcfg=COMMUNITY_AND_LIVING -
Comment from msevilla00
I traslated this topic to the mailining list for General discussion for users in Great Britain:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-August/020465.html
Please, consider to joint the conversation there to argue within the British community.
Cheers -
Comment from alejandroscf
Hi!
I agree with Miguel, if the official name is both Welsh and English it's OK to set the name to "Welsh Name/English Name" and also tag it with the correct localized tags.Best regards,
Alejandroscf -
Comment from escada
I cannot comment on the specific situation in Wales, but in Brussels, Belgium we have a similar situation. All streets have a Dutch and a French name. Neither one is more important than the other. We use name:fr - name:nl in the name field. Although we accept to opposite order as well.
We even have name:fr - name:nl - name:de as name of our country. -
Comment from trigpoint
Whilst in the past I have generally used the first name on the sign (usually name:cy) as name I am coming around to this way of thinking so do not disagree with the changes made by Miguel.
The norm in Wales is to have both names on the sign, much like in Brussels, even in Maelor Saesneg / English Maelor.
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Comment from RobJN
Whilst we are having this conversation, can we agree the format. I see 3 choices:
"Morfa Mawr / Queen's Road"
"Morfa Mawr - Queen's Road"
"Morfa Mawr;Queen's Road"The Belgium community uses the second, the use of ";" in the third is well established. Does anyone else use "/"?
The issue with the Belgium approach here is that "-" is used within the Welsh name quite frequently.
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Comment from trigpoint
" / " is used throughout Wales in these cases and therefore has usage and momentum.
It is the one I would favour as it is clearly a separator. A hyphen could be easily confused. -
Comment from Mike Baggaley
Quoting from the Wales tagging guidelines, at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names "As such, I reckon that you should set the name tag to the Welsh name in areas where the Welsh language has a high concentration of native speakers, and use name:en for the English name in such situations.
Ditto for street names. Many street names are signposted in Welsh only, yet they do have official English translations, eg. Stryd-y-Capel becomes Chapel Street, but it's never signposted as Chapel Street, and most English speakers refer to it as Stryd-y-Capel in their address. In which case, set the name tag to be the Welsh language."
Although some other countries do suggest using the slash format on that page, the Welsh section does not mention it, and suggests what I said at the beginning.
I have run osmfilter to investigate names containing slashes and :en and :cy suffixes and came up with the following:
Place names: not one place name in Wales with a slash in it.
Highways: 5856 highways with name:cy, 2887 highways with name:en, 304 highways with a slash. This indicates that the common practice in Wales is to use one of the two language variants as the name, with only a small percentage of roads being tagged with a slash. It also makes no sense to tag places differently to highways. -
Comment from msevilla00
Hello again,
If you came now to this discussion you may notice something happens in the wiki. A British user changed it after the discussion in the talk-gb mailing list:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-August/020493.htmlI disagree with the change and I consider it arbitrary and unilateral. You can still check the history changes of the wiki to see what was there.
As far as I understand my approach is the more realistic with the place, the people and the legal framework, at least in Ceredigion Council.
I hope more points of view from Wales could came because British community opinions came mainly from England.
Regards
Miguel
- Rhes Rheidol / Rheidol Terrace (4064113), v8
- Sgwâr Owain Glyndŵr / Owain Glyndŵr Square (4370385), v17
- Y Stryd Fawr / Great Darkgate Street (4370388), v18
- Stryd y Dollborth / Northgate Street (4370389), v12
- Y Ffynnon Haearn / Chalybeate Street (4370391), v8
- Stryd Thespis / Thespian Street (4370678), v14
- Fford Alexandra / Alexandra Road (4370679), v15
- Dan Dre / Mill Street (4370699), v18
- Coedlan-y-Parc / Park Avenue (4370700), v22
- Y Stryd Uchel / High Street (4483730), v9
- Stryd y Frenhines / Queen Street (4483731), v8
- Heol y Wig / Pier Street (4485049), v17
- Stryd y Ro / Sea View Place (4760731), v18
- Stryd y Gorfforaeth / Corporation Street (4760733), v7
- Maes Alfred / Alfred Place (4760734), v6
- Stryd y Popty / Baker Street (4760736), v9
- Stryd y Farchnad / Market Street (4760738), v7
- Y Porth Bach / Eastgate (4953706), v14
- Stryd Portland / Portland Street (4953707), v10
- Ffordd-y-Mor / Terrace Road (16278407), v26
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