Changeset: 155205011
Sentiero 30 Val di Fumo
Closed by CAI Salò
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (19160 it) |
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source | survey |
Discussion
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Comment from Hungerburg
There is talk on this on the forum, https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/117644 - maybe you want to join?
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Comment from CAI Salò
good morning,
the question is much simpler than it may be. Path 30 is used by expert mountaineers, and was opened to connect Val Adamè with Passo Val di Fumo. The project was carried out by volunteers with the help of the Lissone refuge manager. The trail is indicative (like most mountaineering trails, see the trail, final part, of Forcel Rosso), the reason is given by the fact that avalanches and landslides move the rocks with the trail markers. Therefore, it must be followed with the help of paper maps (kompass) and GPS. Furthermore, you must proceed by azimuth, identifying the best route. The trail indicates the route (which is not that difficult) but not the trampling. In fact, the trail is left in gray and is not classified precisely because of the phenomena of washing away and changes in the orography. The route was opened as a normal connecting route, but it is up to the hiker to be able to evaluate (based on their own experience) whether it is feasible or not. The proof is given by overcoming the gully that connects Bivacco Baroni with Bocchetta di Levade, which in some places presents third-grade difficulties. This is enough to make the unwary understand that one should not go further unless one has adequate mountaineering training. However, I would leave aside evaluations on the professionalism of the members of the Italian Alpine Club and the Società Alpinistica Tridentina who daily report and maintain over 8000 km of trails on Italian territory. All the volunteers of the CAI-SAT must be given the best compliments for the work done. No further communications will follow. Thank you. CAI Salò. -
Comment from Superfebs
This route is not in the list of the official CAI paths - the land registry, or "catasto dei sentieri CAI".
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Comment from Hungerburg
Perhaps CAI Salò should document in his/her/their personal account profile whether he/she/they are officially appointed to map on the behalves of CAI. Otherwise, all of this is just personal opinion of some unnamed person hiding behind an avatar.
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Comment from Superfebs
Even if they do are appointed to map on the behalves of CAI, this very one route isn't belonging to the list of CAI routes, so for this very route that wouldn't matter much. It would still a CAI account, mapping any public and non-CAI pathway.
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Comment from Hungerburg
Dear CAI Salò, final words spoken, still one question of mine allowed? Would you please elaborate on what you mean when you say "In fact, the trail is left in gray"? Looking at the standard view, it is shown much like a 2m wide footway in a park in Trento e.g. So, not grey at all.
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Comment from Hungerburg
Hmm, no reply for a week. Yet, this is of substantial interest. Openstreetmap is not a paint book where ways are given colours by the mappers. Instead, mappers map what is there on the ground (a.k.a. trampling).
I guess I will have to change the tagging of the way from highway=path;path=route into highway=route. This tag is not widely used. Which colour it renders just up to the consumer of the data. Looking at the way in the tracestack topo renderer, currently it is shown red. And that has been said is not wanted.
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Comment from SomeoneElse
@CAI Salò
> No further communications will follow. Thank you. CAI Salò.
OpenStreetMap is a shared project, and we have to work together to create the best map. You (as a member of an organisation) don't get a veto on that - other members of that organisation may disagree.
Please do join the conversation at https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/alpinist-routes-marked-as-footpaths/117644 explaining your thoughts here - we'd love to get your side of the story.
Best Regards,
Andy -
Comment from SomeoneElse
@CAI Salò Please do join the discussion at https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/alpinist-routes-marked-as-footpaths/117644 . If you don't, people won't have heard your point of view, and any decision reached won't take it into consideration.
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Comment from SomeoneElse
@CAI Salò Per favore, unisciti alla discussione su https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/alpinist-routes-marked-as-footpaths/117644 . Se non lo fai, le persone non avranno ascoltato il tuo punto di vista e qualsiasi decisione presa non lo prenderà in considerazione.
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Comment from Hungerburg
I guess I know now what is meant with red/gray -- https://hiking.waymarkedtrails.org/#?map=15.0/46.1351/10.558 -- help there also has a section on Italy.
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Comment from Road–Runner
So this is the Bochetta de Levade saddle and the key spot, right? https://youtu.be/I3pQbankkXA?si=4cshma0CWV54qbdV&t=581
And this the gully up to the saddle: https://youtu.be/3qObgHMSdAk?si=v2QzhFkdNQGqwOik&t=118
Cause on the other parts according to LIDAR the steepness is not more than 40° (thus no hints for dangerous terrain).This speaks in favour of the accuracy of the information provided by CAI. Seeing the videos, I also guess that CAI Salò is with "third-grade difficulties" not referring to UIAA scale III but propaply to CAI hiking scale?
In my humble opinion, I generally think that someone who is active in CAI can better assess alpine conditions and that a lot of fuss has been made about nothing here.
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Comment from Superfebs
I invite you to go hike that trail and see that "nothing" yourself, considering you rate the difficulty with the LIDAR steepness alone, not counting cracks, gullies and the terrain I've crossed, while you're judging from a bunch of satellite data.
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Comment from Road–Runner
I have just made my own summary of the changes that have been made here. But it's really a beautiful area. I am not so often in Trentino, but maybe I'll visit it sometime. :-)
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Comment from Hungerburg
@RoadRunner, the videos show what @Superfebs found the easy parts. Likely grade three not referring to UIAA III, so much can be seen too.
Apart from that, I guess I meanwhile understand what the reference to "kompass" means, namely https://www.kompass.de/wanderkarte/ where sentiero 30 is depicted as *waymarked hiking trail*, which it obviously is not.
And that brings us to the other question: Is it enough for a path to be shown on a map, so that i can be mapped in openstreetmap? I always though, openstreetmap being about ground truth, not about copying. And all the parties with local knowledge here agree, that there is nothing on the ground there, no markers, no trampling.
BTW, Kompass maps shows the path quite differently, and others too. Kompass indeed seems to be "indicative" as well ;)
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Comment from Road–Runner
@Hungerburg Unfortunately I don't have time for further discussions and will quit here. But I strongly discourage you from making further changes, as you don't have any local knowledge. Maybe there are cairns, traces? We don't know, the path is by the way also on other hiking maps like 4LAND. Afaik the wrong inference to the UIAA scale was also made by you, right? So I really recommend to leave everything as it is.
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Comment from supsup
There is a signpost for the route at the bottom of the valley accordign to map. So there is something on the ground.
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