OpenStreetMap

escada has commented on the following diary entries

Post When Comment
Nonsense values of shop= key 6 days ago

Maybe brands do not work for supermarkets, but what about bicycle shops, hifi (shops only selling Bose or Marantz or just a couple of end-end brand names), Apple Stores, etc ?

Let me take a look at categories for supermarkets in Belgium, we have the following types of supermarkets

  • convenience stores (less and less, I remember one from my youth, so I take that as an example)
  • night shops (aka convenience stores with different opening hours)
  • mini-supermarkets (e.g. proxy-Delhaize, Leon Delhaize, Spar (often))
  • discounters (Aldi, Lidl) do not sell brands (Danone, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, ...)
  • "regular" supermarkets (Delhaize-De Leeuw, Carrefour, Colruyt (maybe a discounter, but sells brands such as Coca-Cola - is somewhere between discounter and regular)
  • Hypermarkets (a few Carrefour and Cora I think)

  • Hypermarkets can be categorized as supermarkt + some extra categories.

  • Night shops might be recognized because no fresh vegetables, fruit.

The others ? They probably have the same "important" categories, you can buy food, drinks, cleaning products in all of them. You just have less choice within each category. I know that in some supermarkets you can buy newspapers, but that is not the deciding factor to go to a supermarket in most cases.

In Belgium the name of the supermarket and the size are more important than trying to find categories that are sold in one and not in the other. The problem with categories is: not enough: all shops types mentioned above are the same. Too much categories, hard to search and understand why you would pick one above the other. People don't like too much choice (there are studies about that).

Further, why do I have to specify a shop in my navigation app by clicking many categories, while searching for "supermarket" is much more convenient ? And yes, in a foreign country that might mean that I have to learn that the supermarket does not sell wine (e.g. Switserland, Sweden) and I have to go elsewhere.

Another anecdote: while rice pudding in cans are sold in almost every supermarket in Belgium (including the German Lidl and Aldi), you do not find this product in their German counterparts. Since this is about a product and not a category, your store 2.0 is not going to help.

While I would like to differentiate between hypermarkets and regular supermarkets myself, and I would like to express that the bakery in our town is part deli, I can understand why people do not like to map a supermarket as a shop that sells X number of categories. It doesn't solve enough problems and is much less convenient than the simple shop=supermarket tag.

Just like you think product level is absurd (you do not see enough problems are solved vs. work in tagging), they think your store 2.0 is absurd ( not enough problems are solved vs. work in tagging). So for me, they react the same to you as you to me.

I have to constantly remind myself to be open to new tagging schemes, so I am open to improvements to the shop tag, but not at the cost of loosing the convenience to tag shop=supermarket. And that's the same critique I have for the education 2.0. IMHO, You have to keep some clear defaults (whether it is supermarket or driving school or hospital), perhaps even on a national level (see highways), and have additional tags to mark the odds.

A scheme where you have to study a long list of tags to see whether something matches a well-known concept (which might be different from country to country), does not work for me.

Nonsense values of shop= key 7 days ago

@BushmanK

I know my examples might be a bit far stretched, but why do you call them absurd ? Do you think people do not decide on the neighborhood in which they are going to live depending on the other people living there ?

So the questions you want to answer (which questions) with the data are ok, but the examples I made up are absurd ? Can you tell me which part of the questions are absurd ? The questions or the fact that I ask you whether all of the data needed to answer them has to be in OSM ?

In order to define a data model, you need a functional specification. You define already a part of it in your last but one paragraph. But I miss some examples.

So from your reply I still don't know which questions you want to pose and that can be solved with the new scheme that you have in mind and that cannot be answered with the current schema.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but do you want to be able to answer a question like:

give me all places where I can buy a bike ? (Some supermarkets might sell bikes, some sport shops might sell bikes, and of course shop=bicycle)

Then what about the question: Give my all places where I can buy a race bike of brand X, and where I can get a proper service to adapt it further to my needs ?

Absurd ?

Do you want something like shop=supermarket product:wine=no product:bicycle=yes

and somewhere in the wiki a page where the default products for a shop=supermarket are defined? But are those categories enough, or do we need more detail ?

We were shopping in a supermarket in Germany last year and wanted to buy some white wine. But they only had local wines and Chardonnay wines. None of which we wanted to buy. With just product:wine=yes I don't gain a lot.

Which detail do we want ? What do we gain by listing all the categories of products, when you do not have details such as brand, tastes etc. ?

When you define a more detailed tagging, I would still like to have the possibility to quickly define something as a supermarket, but also when more detail is added, still look for supermarkets. I'd rather not start looking for something that sells vegetables, meat, fish, clean products, etc.

In case you proposed Education 2.0, that was what I was missing with the driving school thing. I still want to be able to search for driving schools and rather not have to look for education=course, course=driving-license-of-type-X

Nonsense values of shop= key 7 days ago

@BushmanK

I know my examples might be a bit far stretched, but why do you call them absurd ? Do you think people do not decide on the neighborhood in which they are going to live depending on the other people living there ?

So the questions you want to answer (which questions) with the data are ok, but the examples I made up are absurd ? Can you tell me which part of the questions are absurd ? The questions or the fact that I ask you whether all of the data needed to answer them has to be in OSM ?

In order to define a data model, you need a functional specification. You define already a part of it in your last but one paragraph. But I miss some examples.

So from your reply I still don't know which questions you want to pose and that can be solved with the new scheme that you have in mind and that cannot be answered with the current schema.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but do you want to be able to answer a question like:

give me all places where I can buy a bike ? (Some supermarkets might sell bikes, some sport shops might sell bikes, and of course shop=bicycle)

Then what about the question: Give my all places where I can buy a race bike of brand X, and where I can get a proper service to adapt it further to my needs ?

Absurd ?

Do you want something like shop=supermarket product:wine=no product:bicycle=yes

and somewhere in the wiki a page where the default products for a shop=supermarket are defined? But are those categories enough, or do we need more detail ?

We were shopping in a supermarket in Germany last year and wanted to buy some white wine. But they only had local wines and Chardonnay wines. None of which we wanted to buy. With just product:wine=yes I don't gain a lot.

Which detail do we want ? What do we gain by listing all the categories of products, when you do not have details such as brand, tastes etc. ?

When you define a more detailed tagging, I would still like to have the possibility to quickly define something as a supermarket, but also when more detail is added, still look for supermarkets. I'd rather not start looking for something that sells vegetables, meat, fish, clean products, etc.

In case you proposed Education 2.0, that was what I was missing with the driving school thing. I still want to be able to search for driving schools and rather not have to look for education=course, course=driving-license-of-type-X

Why local assumptions are wrong for an international project 7 days ago

I thought you could change attitudes as well through education :-)

Nonsense values of shop= key 8 days ago

What do you expect from the OpenStreetMap data ? Should it be able to answer any question about finding locations to buy item X of brand Y below price Z ? Should we be able to find any school where they give course A ? Should we be able to find any neighbourhood with less than X % of people belonging to religion/race/... ? Should we be able to find all hotels that accept dogs, have a swimming pool, speak Dutch, have a buffet that is rated highly by previous visitors and have an offer for 150 EUR for this weekend ?

Or do we find that information in another database and given the name / address (or another method of linking the data) of the item, then use OpenStreetMap to help in the navigation ?

Depending on the answers to those questions, we need a more detailed schema as you have in mind, or we can live with the more general one we have now.

Is our simple key-value paired schema the best place to store all that extra information ? Are our tools suited for the input/verification of this type of data ? I mention verification, because when you want to list hundreds (or even tens) of products per store, I expect we need other tools to verify what previous mappers did.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on what you expect from OSM data.

Nonsense values of shop= key 8 days ago

Please add do-it-yourself, trade, electronics, and when I think of it, all the other shop tags to your list of tags that are "useless".

Unless you list all products (brands, specific items and price) you will never find the shop that you want to go to. O, and don't forget to list the number of items in stock, otherwise I might make a needless trip over there. And I can only hope it is not the yearly vacation for the shop or whether the shop is closed for unexpected reasons.

No, seriously, I understand what you try to achieve, and I'll agree that you cannot distinguish a supermarket from a hypermarket (even in Belgium, sorry Sander). We had this discussion just recently on the tagging mailing list. I think that our current scheme works in general, but of course if you want to buy a very specific hifi installation, our scheme does not work.

But this is also true for brands of sodas in supermarkets, some discounters do not sell the well-known brands, only their own. Do we have to solve this in OSM ? (honest question) or can we have a OpenShopCatalogue project where you list all this stuff ?

Why local assumptions are wrong for an international project 8 days ago

Is the root problem: "Real men do not read manuals ?" :-)

I see the same problem here with cafe and pub. In French and Dutch a pub is called a Café/Cafe. So people tag them as amenity=cafe instead of amenity=pub.

What can we do ? Have the editors ask for confirmation when they see you are editing in Russian (language) and want to add a hangar/warehouse ? Something like

"I see you are about to add a building of type hangar. This is meant for buildings were one build aircrafts. In case you want to map 'ангар' I suggest to replace it with building=warehouse, ..."

and 2 buttons: "replace" & "leave as is".

??

Would this type of assistance help ? or would it be better to force people to use presets and not be able to type in tags on their own ?

Right now, you have to review and educate, as the tools cannot help you.

Como usar el plugin de Buildings en JOSM 15 days ago

(Sorry for the English) You can configure the tags that are added by the building tools plugin. See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/BuildingsTools

National Missing Maps mapathon 16 days ago

We had a very mixed audience, people from the geography department, old students, students and people from other departments, someone from OSGeo Belgium and a good number of people that got interested through the news items. There was also a couple that returned after their first Mapathon in January. People showed throughout the day, as late as 5pm. So I was happy I used iD. I did give some introduction to JOSM just after lunch

National Missing Maps mapathon 17 days ago

Thanks Joost for those numbers. Amazing !

"This is too complicated" - is it? 29 days ago

As soon as I have to map 2 or 3 of those clinics (диспансер), I would make a (JOSM-)preset. I'm too lazy to remember/type the first 7 tags above. And the also makes it easy for newbies (and experienced mappers that are newbies in the healthcare tagging) to use the proper tagging.

Re: Stamen, Patrolling Trails in OpenStreetMap about 1 month ago

There is a discussion going on on the talk-us mailing list as well. Frederik Ramm asked a similar question as you.

African Roads and a Western Bias in Mapping about 1 month ago

Just in case you didn't know yet, OsmAnd can display the road surface.

I don't know which map style you loaded on your Nuvi, but it should be possible to develop a road-style for it that suits your situation better, e.g. by supporting the surface tags. After all, OpenFietsMap already does this for bicycle roads.

Where was I ? 2 months ago

On my mac, I made a smart folder which contains the search result of all Track_*.gpx files. That's needed because I keep them in subfolders per year and per day. I just opened all files from that smart folder in JOSM. I just checked and I have 1005 tracks. JOSM takes a bit to open them all on my machine, but not more than a few minutes.

Where was I ? 2 months ago

Thanks for the suggestion mmd, I'll give it a try

Cultural Mapping - Open University Undergraduate Studies - BA Combined Social Science (Hons) 2 months ago

Please note that the project is called OpenStreetMap, not Open Map. Success with your course

Bicycle Parking 3 months ago

You could also add amenity=charging_station for people using an electrical bike. They are becoming more and more popular in Belgium.

Mapping small / lesser known businesses in Slums of Mumbai 3 months ago

With umap, you can add your own "layers" with data that does not have to be part of the OpenStreetMap database. You could e.g. add a layer with your customers (when you are a business).

Since the data is not part of the OpenStreetMap (OSM) database, you can use any tags/format you like. Of course, the drawback is that other people will not be able to use your data, they can only look at your "umap".

When you add data to OSM, you need to follow certain rules, one of them is that you need to classify the things you want to add, e.g. by adding the shop or craft tag. (which is also mentioned by SK53).

Mapping small / lesser known businesses in Slums of Mumbai 3 months ago

I don't like a tagging scheme with only phone and description tags. I would try to fit them into a scheme with a shop or craft tag. Maybe even man_made=works, product=xxx

Another solution is making a umap (http://umap.openstreetmap.fr) and then you have to freedom of mapping the businesses as you want.

Idea of issue tracker for tagging scheme 3 months ago

Does Github support "multiple threads" ? What I mean is it possible to make a reply appear immediately under the original comment, instead of at the bottom under all comments ? For the type of discussion you want to do, I think this is a requirement.

When I look at some of the discussion about carto-css, it find it difficult to see who is replying to who when a lot of people are commenting at the same time.