OpenStreetMap
The Remains of Phoenix Farm, Gedling
Posted by alexkemp on 15 February 2017 in English. Last updated on 7 July 2022.Last December I wrote about Phoenix Farm, Gedling, a farm with a direct connection to JRR Tolkien & his most famous book Lord of the Rings. There are a dozen pubs, churches, streets, etc. in Gedling named after this farm + an electoral ward; naturally, the farm itself was knocked down in 1954, and the residential estate named after it was built on it’s ashes.
As best as I can tell, this set of garages were built on the site of the farm buildings:-
I’ve been trying to chase some mapping for this farm for some time, and last Monday mapped Arnold Lane opposite Jessops Lane, where the Farm was supposed to be. It seems that Phoenix Farm (and also Manor Farm, which was on the Jessops Lane side of the road) were originally part of the Manvers Estate (Earls Manvers & Kingston, Duke Kingston & the Marquess of Dorchester; we are talking about the de Manvers and Pierrepont family, those sort of folks). The family began selling some of their estate in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries (income from rents had crashed); title deeds for properties in Gedling, Carlton and Stoke Bardolph are held by Nottingham University under the reference Ma 3001-5876. I’m waiting for the University to get back to me to be able to view those deeds.
Today Chris Russell, Spatial Data Manager at Gedling District Council, phoned me back after my email was passed to him by Mike Avery, manager at the Planning Department. Chris had access to the detailed Ordnance Survey (OS) mapping, including all historical mapping, and after much conversation & guidance was finally able to tell me that he had been able to locate the farm, but in that name only in 1950 (actually 1952 - see comments). Manor Farm was opposite Phoenix Farm on the other side of the road. And no, none of that mapping could be offered to me due to the OS copyright.
I went on a school trip in my youth to Holland. We were shown a medieval prison. The guide pointed out that the prison was on the first floor, and that some prisoners were routinely starved of food as a form of torture. On the ground floor was the cookhouse — deliberately, so that cooking smells would rise up through the prison & cause their suffering to become more exquisite. After Chris Russell’s conversation I knew a little more of how those poor folks in the prison felt. Here’s the smell of the info, but you can’t have it.
Thurs 16 February: Document Discovery Booked for Monday
The University got in touch & I’ve arranged to travel to them on Monday next, 20 February (the facility is King’s Meadow Campus Nottingham University, Lenton Lane).
Update 7 July 2022
Mapillary has changed it’s download URLs & therefore all links within my diaries that used a Mapillary download URL in the old format are broken (the Mapilliary map URLs, which show a photo within the context of an OSM map, have also changed and are redirected via a HTTP/1.1 302 Found, but the download URL hostname no longer exists and gives a “No address associated with hostname” DNS error). I’m slowly going through to update them. The new URLs are terrifyingly long, but show OK on my screen (and I hope also on yours).
Discussion
Comment from TomH on 15 February 2017 at 14:51
Alternatively you can find it at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/461636/342753/12/100765 which is probably the exact same map (1955 1:1250) that he was looking at ;-)
That one is even old enough to be out of copyright, though I suspect old-maps.co.uk will claim rights in their scans so it may be best not to use it as a source for OpenStreetMap.
Comment from Warin61 on 15 February 2017 at 21:31
Are not copies of titles to land held by some government department? I know the one here keeps records dating way back … and they are open for public viewing.
Comment from TomH on 15 February 2017 at 21:38
Not exactly… The situation in the UK is complex - although the first attempt to introduce land registration was made in 1862 it wasn’t until 1925 that it started to become compulsory and that was then phased in over the next 65 years (yes really) and didn’t become compulsory everywhere until 1990.
In addition even in areas with compulsory registration it was only triggered when the land was sold so a farm that might have been in the same family for generations might well not be registered.
In addition the Land Registry doesn’t hold full deeds - the title register has copies of anything covenants considered important and an outline plan. There’s no cadastral registration so the plan only has what are known as “general boundaries” which basically means it gives a rough idea of where the boundary is.
There’s a small charge to get the title details but even then it’s likely the map comes with an Ordnance Survey copyright attached so that you can’t just do as you like with it.
Comment from alexkemp on 15 February 2017 at 21:49
Thanks for that @TomH. I found Phoenix Farm clearly marked on the 1952 1:1,250 map, and it is exactly opposite Jessops Lane. Sure enough, the farm buildings are on the location of today’s garages. I was also pleased to discover that Manor Farm is the building-with-a-bulge-in-it, just as I suspected.
Those maps are indeed all OS maps, so they probably are the same source maps.