OpenStreetMap

SomeoneElse has commented on the following diary entries

Post When Comment
Frustration about iD editor's inability to easily draw rectangular buildings 1 day ago

@Polyglot Re the "JOSM vs iD" thing, I remember reading something recently (probably another diary entry?) where people did a cost-benefit analysis of iD vs JOSM (answer - it depends how long they're in the room for and a few other variables - if you have people for an hour you don't want to waste most of that struggling to install and learn JOSM). With a DWG hat and a finger in the air I reckon I see just as high a proportion of "new user issues" with JOSM as with iD; they're just different sorts of issues (dragging a whole town 100km to the east instead of failing to square a building). JOSM's great, and it's the best tool for many jobs in OSM, but it's not the best tool for every job (in fact I don't use it in what might be called my "normal" mapping because it doesn't do some of the things that I rely on that other editors do).

Frustration about iD editor's inability to easily draw rectangular buildings 1 day ago

@Polyglot Without wishing to channel Dale Carnegie here, what are you actually hoping to achieve by this diary entry?

The list post that provoked the tweet was very broad and attacked one small part of a large problem (lack of training and lack of retention of remote mappers at organised events - see the thread from just before the offending list post on the HOT list).

Whether or not it's an actual problem or not (do NGOs really think "that building isn't square on OSM so I won't include it when drawing up my humanitarian relief / malaria extinction / whatever plans"?) you seem to be do all you can to prevent progress in your desired direction.

Imagine if http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=15188 , instead of being full of relatively polite comments contained comments saying that people hated your work, or that you shouldn't X but instead do Y, and that somehow not doing Y was somehow a moral failing on your part and that you "owe it to" people to do Y. Would you start doing Y instead of X immediately? I'm guessing that like the majority of humans on the planet you probably wouldn't.

If you actually want to change the way iD works, start at the "Participate!" section of the readme at https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD . The prerequisites aren't major (though the challenges of contributing to any large JS codebase will likely take a bit of learning).

If that's not a something you're able to do then the wider issue (HOT new mapper retention and training) surely is. How can that process be improved so that people know that squaring buildings is even a thing, and instead of being only 30% likely to return to mapping are much more likely to do so? Instead of saying "there is a problem, X should do Y" ask "how can I help?".

Best Regards, Andy

Full disclaimer - I'm a DWG member but this is just my personal view. With a DWG hat on I've handled complaints both ways about HOT mapping ("X's mapping in $place wasn't very good" and "Y deleted all the stuff I added there").

Planned rendering changes of protected areas 13 days ago

That rendering is mostly just what OSM Carto did in 2014 - I've reduced the roads that appear at that zoom level, but don't think I've changed nature reserve / national park rendering. See https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=8&lat=54.406&lon=-1.769 for how it normally looks in the UK.

The internal borders actually are present in a very light dashed green, but it's light enough to not be visually a problem.

Planned rendering changes of protected areas 13 days ago

Isn't the main problem here the way that the data's being presented raher than the fact that all or these nature reserves / protected areas are being shown? At zoom 8 does it really make sense to show the outline of each area, which when they're contiguous or nearly contiguous (see e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/427927020#map=19/43.64670/-74.60573 ) just means that at zoom 8 you get lots of green squiggly lines?

As an example consider OSM Carto from a few years ago - it would render nature reserves a bit like this:

dashed lines between reserves

Ignore the blue motorways and the fact that there's probably too many names there - but perhaps at z8 there's no need for the exaggerated reserve border for each sub-area?

Memory hog? 14 days ago

Maybe there are a very large number of things in the area - try zooming in as much as you can before you click "edit". Does that help?

Reviewing new users edits in Brazil 14 days ago

Re "Studies have shown that welcoming new users improve retention" - "studies" also haven't shown that (for example a few years ago I looked at the Italian data where recipients were randomly selected to receive welcome emails or not, and there wasn't any obvious correlation). The transcript at https://2017.stateofthemap.us/transcripts/quasi-experimental-research.html is actually too poor to understand what point is being made there, but it seems to be comparing different countries data with each other - it's essentially comparing "apples with oranges".

That doesn't mean that contacting new mappers isn't a good idea of course - I'm just not convinced it'll make a huge difference to retention. What I think it does do (and unfortunately this too is just anecdotal) is improve quality. I suspect that messages are very culturally sensitive too - for example I suspect that the Dutch community's version wouldn't go down at all well in the UK, and anything dreamt up by a UK mapper would likely just be ignored in the US :)

FWIW I wrote https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:SomeoneElse/new_mapper_messages about 5 years ago, and the key idea there is to "give people the chance to make mistakes and learn from them" rather than jumping down their throat at the first "error".

Liberland should be a country or a semi-independent state? 17 days ago

Is the beer any good? (Frank Zappa quote for ref https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/frank_zappa_134155 ).

More seriously, the OSMF policy on this sort of thing is here:

http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf

It's an extension of OSM's "on the ground" rule and is essentially a similar sort of test Frank's - does this thing possess the attributes that we'd expect a country to have? If so, it should be a country in OSM. If not, it shouldn't.

Editing in OSMAnd 21 days ago

I wish I could modify my changeset comments

Just add a comment to the changeset discussion and don't worry about it :)

Memory hog? 23 days ago

When you say "OSM" are you just browsing to www.openstreetmap.org in the (Chrome) web browser?

Mapping Swadlincote (Derbyshire) only by strolls about 1 month ago

Yay! That bit of south Derbyshire has been a bit neglected over the years. It's great to have someone updating it regularly.

For info, there is a pub meetup in Derby on the 21st - see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nottingham/Pub_Meetup (it's in Nottingham 3 times out of 4 but in Derby 1 time out of 4). - SomeoneElse (Andy)

OSM Training at Eastern University of Sri Lanka in Batticaloa about 2 months ago

@GOwin That makes perfect sense - it's the proper training (and the time to do it) that's key.

OSM Training at Eastern University of Sri Lanka in Batticaloa about 2 months ago

Hi, What support and training was given to the students when they started mapping?

There were a number of problems with these users' contributions, the most serious of which as a drag and drop of a large town in northern Sri Lanka 100km to the east. Several other new mappers drew a number of doodles in Europe and northern Canada which had to be reverted. A quick count up suggests that roughly half of all mappers identified as part of this project made changes so severe that had to be reverted.

Part of the problem was that the students were all starting with JOSM (which is simply inappropriate for someone who's just starting out - a node drag of a large town is simply impossible in e.g. iD, yet in JOSM it's frighteningly easy). One thing worth thinking about in the future for students' first edits in JOSM - use the dev server. That way they can experiment and when they've got the hang of things can start mapping things for real.

Was any thought given to using existing learning resources? http://learnosm.org/en/ is one that springs to mind but there are other similar examples - I'm sure that a question to one of OSM's mailing lists or the help site beforehand would have yielded more offers of existing "new mapper" toolkits. Unfortunately instead the OSM community had to spend time going through the contributions working out which were plausible and which were not.

Please take this comment in the spirit in which it is intended - not as an admonishment, but as something that might help avoiding these sorts of problems in the future. OSM needs new mappers, and the best new mappers for any area are the ones local to it - that's why it's great to see that a number of the students are now doing field-based mapping around Eastern University itself.

Best Regards, Andy (from the Data Working Group)

Reverting unexplained demotions to footways about 2 months ago

... and (as I should have said before hitting "save"), the subject of this diary post (is something best described as a footway or a cycleway, regardless of its legal status) is exactly why proper surveys are needed.

Also, if something's definately a "public footpath" or "public bridleway" don't forget to add it as such using the "designation" tag, so that maps that display such things can do so.

Reverting unexplained demotions to footways about 2 months ago

Personally I wouldn't copy data from http://www.rowmaps.com/ , for a couple of reasons - one is that fact that it's available there doesn't mean that it's suitably licenced for use in OSM, but the main one is that the footpaths actually in place in a certain area and what the council thinks it has are two very different things. You'll only find out about the former by actually going there.

Visualize history of an object in OSM about 2 months ago

Looks great!

It'd be great if you didn't have to scroll down to the bottom of the list on e.g. https://aleung.github.io/osm-visual-history/#/node/248436981 to get to the scroll bar at the bottom.

Can anything be done to reduce the memory use of e.g. https://aleung.github.io/osm-visual-history/#/relation/2767188 ? That's a fairly extreme example, but memory use is a problem with OSM Deep History also.

Potential border issue: Catalonia about 2 months ago

Hello, For info, Spain's already one of those boundaries that people "keep an eye on" because some of Spain's southern border is also disputed. The issue with the southern border is part of what was discussed previously at https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=602864#p602864 and elsewhere.

More generally, there's a sub-forum at https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=56862 that monitors all sorts of boundaries. Usually the problems found here aren't "political"; just accidental editing errors.

Regards, Andy (DWG)

El Sahara Occidental NO es territorio de Marruecos. Es un territorio no autónomo segun ONU about 2 months ago

See https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=602864#p602864 for when this was last discussed in detail, and http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf for the general OSMF policy on such things.

Translating OSM Diary entries about 2 months ago

Maybe because it's pretty much a commodity these days (even built into some web browsers)?

For the OSM weekly we tend to offer both the original article and a translation. I tend to use whichever of Google Translate or Microsoft Translator seems to give the better answer, based on my knowledge of the original language.

Which online translation mechanism would you suggest should be built into OSM?

What's new in OSMCha 2 months ago

If the frontend to this is https://osmcha.mapbox.com/ then might I suggest actually linking to it somewhere near the top of the diary entry? That way people will know what it is about :)

Llanollen Canal 3 months ago

To be honest, I wouldn't worry too much about "very little landuse". It's actually easier to add other features (POIs, hedges, ditches etc.) before landuse has been mapped, and if you've surveyed all the hedges etc. adding landuse is also much easier.

There has been a bit of a problem in GB with "remote upland mapping" - people wanting to "colour in" landuse and making a bit of a mess of it, either by drawing very rough landuse boundaries (far less accurate than the existing work that people have done) or by just "getting it wrong" - picking something rendered by the OSM Carto stylesheet ("heath") regardless of whether the thing they're mapping is remotely heathland, or even "heathland in OSM terms", or not. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-September/thread.html#20643 is one thread on talk-gb, but not the only one, as it's been an ongoing issue.

As to what thing on the ground matches what "natural" OSM tag, that's probably one for the mailing lists - https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-September/020645.html is an attempt to map existing non-OSM classifications as a basis for this.

With regard to " Still waiting for someone to come up with a rendering for Fell" why not have a go yourself? If you want "a slippy map like the OSM website" then if you follow https://switch2osm.org/manually-building-a-tile-server-16-04-2-lts/ you'll get one (see also https://ircama.github.io/osm-carto-tutorials/ ), and modifying that to say "treat natural=fell like natural=heath, but with a slightly different colour" would actually be pretty straightforward.

What is slightly complicated is that natural=fell is actually used for a variety of features (see http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/rX4 ) so you might need to do a bit of head-scratching to see if you wanted to also include a special "fell" rendering for https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/518304766 or https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/773534919 .