OpenStreetMap

On implied turn restrictions and armchair mapping

Posted by NE2 on 10 February 2013 in English (English)

I seem to have flipped from manic ("I can stop a bully with logic!") to depressive ("what the hell was I thinking") in the past few hours. Don't bother me unless kicking a man when he's down makes you feel bigger.

Original text follows:

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Today I made this movement in a Ford [s]Focus[/s] Escape (I'm usually a passenger and pay more attention to the road than details of the car) with no trouble with respect to staying off the striped gore. No signs prohibited this left-and-quick-right. (Note that the national MUTCD gives no prohibitory meaning to the single white line, and neither does Florida law.)

It remains to be seen if this is enough for Paul Johnson, who added a turn restriction prohibiting this movement based solely on aerials.

Location: Buena Vista Drive, Bay Lake, Reedy Creek Improvement District, Orange County, Florida, 32830, United States of America

Comment from dale_p on 11 February 2013 at 01:10

From the Florida handbook PDF page 48, not an article. "Solid White Line A solid white line marks the right edge of the roadway or separates lanes of traffic moving in the same direction. You may travel in the same direction on both sides of this line, but you should not cross the line unless you must do so to avoid a hazard."

Crossing to make a turn is not avoiding a hazard. Do not remove route restrictions that restrict traffic flow to correct behavior.

Page 36 5.32.1 - Entering and Leaving Expressways also suggests it to be wrong Page 33 5.24 - Making Turns As well "10. Finish your turn in the proper lane. A right turn should be from the right lane into the right lane of the roadway entered. A left turn may be completed in any lane lawfully available, or safe, for the desired direction of travel. See the diagrams for making left turns from or into one-way streets. If you reach an intersection where you wish to make a right or left turn and are not in the proper lane, you should drive to the next intersection. Then make the turn from the proper lane."

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Comment from compdude on 11 February 2013 at 03:50

Here's a link to that particular interchange on the map to get the bigger picture: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=28.36376&lon=-81.56656&zoom=17&layers=M

First of all I don't know why any normal person except a lost tourist would get off the freeway and then back on. Such a move would be something completely unexpected by other drivers, therefore it would be hazardous and reckless. You can get a ticket for reckless driving, you know.

I don't know how you can possibly think that such a turn is allowed.

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Comment from NE2 on 11 February 2013 at 04:12

dale_p: I can find no basis in law for that passage in the Florida Driver's Handbook.

compdude: what other drivers? Those stopped at the light?

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Comment from zmonkey on 11 February 2013 at 05:30

The marking on the roadway says to make a left turn.

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Comment from goldfndr on 11 February 2013 at 06:29

When you performed this movement, were all stoplights for eastbound Buena Vista Drive red? (is the outermost lane of eastbound not always green? was the lane occupied?)

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Comment from pieleric on 11 February 2013 at 08:28

Hi NE2, It seems Paul Johnson has really carefully put (and put again) the turn restriction there, and pretty unlikely that the people who made this cross road ever envisioned the movement you've described as being acceptable. I agree with you that local knowledge always has priority, but the opposite side seems to have a point.

So I'd highly recommend you to not go onto the "edit war" path. Especially, it is not advisable to mention "vendalism" in your commits messages for such behavior: it's pretty obvious that Paul Johnson is not willfully damaging the map.

The best is that you continue discussing this case on the mailing list, where a discussion is already going on: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2013-February/010341.html

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Comment from NE2 on 11 February 2013 at 11:33

alexz: which is what I did. goldfndr: yes. All lanes on Buena Vista get a red.

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Comment from NE2 on 11 February 2013 at 11:38

And Paul has indeed gone down the road of denial: "Pretty rich coming from someone who hasn't ever been in the field."

I invite anyone who thinks it's a straight movement to come visit me and drive it together. Because looking at it on the ground it's definitely a left turn into the rightmost lane.

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Comment from Stereo on 11 February 2013 at 14:14

I think we can all agree that the intersection isn't designed well. From the tracks on the ground, it does look like people are de facto ignoring the turn restriction if it exists.

I think it all boils down to Florida law. NE2, would you be OK with restoring the turn restriction if crossing the white line is indeed forbidden?

From the code:

316.089 Driving on roadways laned for traffic.

[...]

(3) Official traffic control devices may be erected directing specified traffic to use a designated lane or designating those lanes to be used by traffic moving in a particular direction regardless of the center of the roadway; and drivers of vehicles shall obey the directions of every such device.

(4) Official traffic control devices may be installed prohibiting the changing of lanes on sections of roadway, and drivers of vehicles shall obey the directions of every such device.

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Comment from NE2 on 11 February 2013 at 14:19

Stereo: yes, if crossing the white line is forbidden, then the turn restriction should be there. But Florida has adopted the MUTCD, which does not forbid crossing single white lines: http://www.dot.state.fl.us/trafficoperations/Operations/MUTCD.shtm

In fact, where FDOT wants to ban changing lanes, they correctly use a double white line (I was here about a month ago, and got trapped in the right lane, meaning that I had to turn right and U-turn): http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=27.898155,-82.693094&spn=0.008648,0.016512&gl=us&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=27.898372,-82.693102&panoid=7QxqWamyOAk4G0eUvM6tOw&cbp=12,193.68,,1,3.71

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Comment from Scally on 11 February 2013 at 18:58

I suggest you write to the local traffic police, requesting their opinion. It is only polite, and may help.

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Comment from NE2 on 11 February 2013 at 20:52

I seem to have flipped from manic ("I can stop a bully with logic!") to depressive ("what the hell was I thinking") in the past few hours. Don't bother me unless kicking a man when he's down makes you feel bigger.

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Comment from jremillard on 11 February 2013 at 23:08

Please apologize, so everybody can can put the pitchforks down so we can all get back to mapping.

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Comment from NE2 on 11 February 2013 at 23:24

I don't apologize for trying to do the right thing. Especially not with eejits like Steve A trying to profile me as a sociopath who's in it for the conflict. If I were religious I could take comfort in his going to hell, but nah.

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Comment from jremillard on 12 February 2013 at 00:38

You should apologize for reverting somebodies else's change without consulting with them first. You should apologize for not finding a way of resolving this disagreement privately (like emailing state of Florida). You should not apologize for being wrong about the turn relation.

You apologizing has nothing to do with anybody else. Believe me, you are not the only person that should be apologizing for this weekends fiasco.

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Comment from zmonkey on 12 February 2013 at 07:39

go to hell with your attitude

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Comment from NE2 on 12 February 2013 at 11:29

I did consult with Paul first.

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Comment from NE2 on 3 March 2013 at 05:31

Linked here for possible future use: http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=29.654025~-81.670804&lvl=20&dir=0&sty=a What's the point of the southbound left turn lane if not for U-turning into the right turn lane (thereby crossing a solid white line)?

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Comment from NE2 on 3 March 2013 at 07:41

PS: I do apologize for the hell comment. That was uncalled for.

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Comment from epcotfan on 4 March 2013 at 04:56

Confirmed yesterday there is no signage prohibiting the described turn. While I think common sense dictates that taking this path is not ideal, there's not actually a basis legislative or posted basis for the restriction.

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Comment from rw__ on 31 March 2013 at 18:57

NE2 said:

"I invite anyone who thinks it's a straight movement to come visit me and drive it together. Because looking at it on the ground it's definitely a left turn into the rightmost lane."

Okay. :-) I look forward to meeting you, talking about OpenStreetMap and doing a little mapping. When and where?

Let's arrange a mappy hour as well!

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Comment from NE2 on 31 March 2013 at 19:24

I'm in Orlando, and you seem to be in Toronto...?

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Comment from Richard on 31 March 2013 at 21:05

SOTM-US 2014!

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Comment from NE2 on 9 June 2013 at 06:11

Just found this on FDOT's 2013 map: http://www.dot.state.fl.us/surveyingandmapping/maps/FLStateMap2013.pdf "A single WHITE solid line discourages crossing but does not prohibit crossing."

PS: I've been banned from OSM. Because Benghazi.

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