font size changes in this entry were unintended.

Thank you for the infomation. I’ll look at some of the options in a spare moment (seems time flys be me so fast witht the serveys backing up awaiting to to be entered..)

I think that it might have taken me time several months before I found I had a profile section on the websight as I just started editing straight away so spent the time in the editor interface instead most of the time. It also took a while till I found out about mapping without presets too for similar reasons. So guess I may not have noticed the agregation straight away and So when I noticed it it felt like a new thing {so that clears that on up}.

In a sence these entries are my very condensed writeings about my activities as using them and the other parts of the profile system you can tack with a lot of detail what things I’ve been concentrating on.

I terms of ordering things about its not as easy as the wiki but if a high proportion of stuff is time time linked in terms of data contributions, servying and reasurching places etc I find things aren’t so hard to find and thay get well clustered into topics by time frame.

I will get a wiki site made but it will be a while as I see the clock ticking even as I write this… though the extra login is a time eater when in a rush I get used to it in a while.

—-~~~~ Now back to mapping those shop layouts…

These aren’t supposed to be added to the user blog but they are added into my user diary as this is the only option in the profile to take user working mapping notes (yes I did try all the other combernations…). Originally these stayed in my profile and others visited the user profiles to read them. Someone felt that it would be a good aidea to collect and create a system diary with everyones diary entries automaticly and publish a promernernt link to it on the main map page so everyone can follow them easily. Some people seem to then have become self-concious of system data added into their own diarys gaining such a wide readership while others have taken the opertunity to start useing it as a mass communication platform instead. Personaly if the system wants to put my notes into such a secondary display then I’m not too bothered though not all such entries are going to be of much use to others. …and given an option I guess I’d opt out of any agregate display that people want to use for mass communication for most of my diary links (though I have recieved some encoraging feedback from some users that pointed me to other related areas I didn’t know about which was useful for those concerned with that topic covered).

My need is to take copy and pasted referances to things I’m using while mapping which I can use when I log into openstreetmap. Now to clarify I use semi-public workstations that have there harddrives wiped clean when i leave the desk and I could be using any one of several tens of thousands of computers with verying specs and access permisions and short of spending ages with a pen and losing some as security gards move me on cuting and pasting to osm user profile system under something that is supposed to be a diry system of the user makes a neet solution. Till of course people start trying to convert it to a to system wide blog.

Therefore I feel the idea of “me misusing user blog” would be better stated that: “The system blog is misusing my user diary entries!”

I’m not sure where these other pages are though I did find by accident someone with a page about themselves on the wiki manual that suprised me at first, so I guess that was what you ment. My time is oftern quite short and I tr to optermise it for mapping so havent tried setting one up yet. Though again is a wiki a good place to put system page links like this (how easy are they changed won’t the wiki need to be used more for offering tagging infomation rater than a jumble of links back to itself and outside with zero annotation for wiki readers)?

I did think about adding them to the osm map or the map notes system instead of the profile but thats an even worse idea than the reast.

If theres a way to make diary entries or note system user orintated and stay on the profile and not leek out to a secondary system then be happy to try it.

Is the user page the MarkusHD the same a something on the wiki tagging manual or is this somewhere else? If so a URL link would help (as I’ve looked in vain so far).

-Thank you for your help.

• European Union information
• shape of the un
• UN regional parts

@jremillard I like your thinking. If we figure out a good schema for the relations ref’s first then role it out and use a semi-automatic tool to find a help migrate especially when things become splintered too much and it becomes a big chore otherwise. I that the first rollings out will need to be dual then an announcement then the old now duplicated tags are removed of the ways (making them leaner and easier to handle). The short gap gives time for data users to test out new formatting codes on the new relations before the old ref’s start leaving and the data users can parse for both and not have any side-effect if either of options is on its own.

correction above I used an “of” instead of an “or” in third paragraph.

I’ve been thinking on this for a a while and Sanderd17 dose have a view but some of the ideas aren’t as universally true across the continent of Europe as whole the UK was like the one number system but it dose have a mess for some routes that shunt major routes though towns and so one even large one either has to disappear or the local authority (its there choice as they make most non-strategic road network signs) decides to add both for some half a mile or less to avoid though traffic confusion. The UK has also been spending much of the last century re-developing its road system and so a nice system in the 1920’s doesn’t equate well in the present so the A34 used to run from the Hampshire coast to Manchester {after being extended I think in the 1930’s old was similar to this } (I don’t know if it ever made it further north) but there are three highly separated parts at least :- M3-M40 A section running into Birmingham centre and one from central Manchester south. But that doesn’t have the problem suggested as the chopping and traffic diversion was the official solution.

There rights of way issue was a local mapping problem in Oxford with a bridleway number becoming rendered as a road number as it was defined not only in highway legislation but originally in rights of way legislation so in the absence of an assigned number for that stretch of road it was automaticly mapped as the great “320/30/10” from the great “Glanville Road” to exit of the “Oxford Spires Academy” car park and a path leading to a paddock {now disused due to intimidation of the horses by the local children from the new estate and the academy when the fences were changed} and a park!

Its a bit of a wide misconception that the EU is somehow responsible for E numbering in Europe - it isn’t and never was. It actually is the quiet effect of the local offices of the United Nations that set them up and works with countries to implement the plans. In this respect the EU is just another country of level of planning bureaucracy to liaise with. The EU has money and plans (see Trans-Europen-Motorways) of its own but the numbering is a UN co-ordinated effort. Both the EU and the UN attempt to do a similar role for major railways and the EU also used to do waterway traffic too.

As the UN is global the some other local offices have looked a copying the idea and so Vietnam proposed to bring a scheme into Asia (originally known as the Asian Highway). So AH roads can now be found at the ends of West-East E roads. For example you can drive from Cork in Ireland on the E30 and with a couple of ferry links can find the road turning into the AH6 as you go through the Urals (I think they overlap a lot locally) and then follow the road though all the way to Busan in the south of South Corea ready for a ferry to Japan!

The Americas has a sort of Pan-American highway system though south American and into the North American systems and Africa also has some semblances of a pan-African system (cold-war stirrings of coups, civil wars and economic problems hampered it a lot but transcontinental road traffic is big business there now).

Making a system that is universal adoptable makes it simpler for data users to get useful consistency. An end to simple ref ‘ing here an prow-ref there and near random misuses of varieties desc and name don’t in the end help the simplifying consistency aim.

Relations are still new to some people and to be fair the whole of OSM is new to others being only around a decade old (when is the party date?) but if we learn from the ad-hoc past and properly plan some world wide consistent uses for the likes with ref’s and joining up roads splintered by parking, lanes and areaised traffic islands. Before parts feel they really need it and other go on doing it differently again (like as now). We could produce a better end database for everyone in the future.

In such a good spirit I hope to formally get all my evolved tagging developments properly into the main wiki-manual soon too.

I think multilunguagal forms have been used with some seperation char in places in europe that recieved two equal names localy (I think the example came from a belgian contributer) but often things get entered in one language. I think the rule of thumb is what you expect to see on a local sign for local people (ie not just for torist convienance) or if say a restraunt uses a deliberate bilingual form so that it forms a single language all to itself in the default to help people it is common to then add the full translations in the single language forms in sub-langauge tags so mono-lingual reads get the whole name.

In simple terms you can have multiple languages in the defualt but you need a bit of a better reason than it is just translated for forigners convienance as thats what the other tags do.

Thank you for your contributions. Your dificulties sound familiar to mapping in the densely mapped parts I work in like central Oxford and here though it looks like someones started to move the buildings in Temple street off the road or vice versa. The building used to be on different offsets when try drawing the sidewalks so I took a set offset that seemed to be fairly accurate to a national import and standardised the area’s new sidewalks I added to it traceing arial photos both the basic in the editor and side views from bing’s bird view especially under trees and site visits to get a good line even through heavy shadow and low resultions (I’m fixing to distances of around about a dekameter (10cm) if I can.

Area maping the roads might be a way down on your to do, but they do have a fixing affect on offsets as long as the backgound image dosn’t warp much (see the recent diary note on japanese roads & here). They can be easy for mappers to adjust to. They can be present for long length through the map. and moden ones might have smooth lines either with markings at: the centre, kerbings or drains etc. that help with a site vist to help you deal with wrinkles.

Well you hope it may add to the help even if it feels a way into the future with so many other corrections to handle first.

At least youwon’t need to be dealing with bleeding edge tagging styles that others aguee for a bit about, for while too.

-Good luck

ps. If you everfind yourself puzzling over area highways and the like in the future let me know and I’ll try to help you out with were its reached by then…

This is a good suggestion it was a nightmare on my first edits trying to int-ref tags to the M27. As routing lines are going to get evenmore cutup in the uk at least if we start spliting all the parkbay rule changes and lane and width changes that there is presure for (Hilltop road near the large park called south park in Oxford UK, EU is due to be split into 30-50 parts and its only a few 100 meters long!) Also this could solve problems that croped up in other parts of the uk with the rights-of-way system clashing with the road numbering for highway purposes (independent legislation and sometimes seperate local authority departments in carge of them). Its true you can create new forms of ref but oftern these are made with little advertisement to end users or even original contributers in some known cases leading to rendering breaks that don’t get spotted sometimes till complaints come back form users of finished maps. Using relations alows multiple equal priority (who the ref tag right of way, cycleroute or highway or even waterway code ref in some places of towpaths and the like, not to mention any campus ref’s that might try to get overlaied). I know expanding ref forms solves a lot of problems and tring to tag the relation as to what a ref is a type of needs explaing in the tagging of the ref, but the fact that editing long routes downloading full routes and routeing to a set route is improved with the binding effect of the relation is a good thing. Relations also offer capacity to add multiple discriptive and note tags and aid in OHM with time ralated notes.

If we had controlled the development of ref alternatives rather than some being altered without warning we could handle thing with those but relations offer more and solve more so agree with the original author that they should get supported more and begining being used.

->robert:- in id select a way to include go to the bottom of the way setings pannel on the left of the screen click on the arrow to open the relation editng sub-part if not already expanded chose a new relation or pick one you have made for the previous way that shows in the list of local relations(id picks local ones so you may need to zoom out and around so it picks it up in the list -working from the end of one way to the next should be sufficent for id to work in most cases)

selecting a pre made one just adds it to the list clicking on the relations name in the tag box brings up the relations settings editing pane similar to other feature where you add new tags look at other members of the relation and the relation to a superseting relation (one with the current relation as a mere member to the beiger relation.

chosing new lets you name it then you canmove on or click on its name like above and start tagging and adding to larger relations.

I hope that gives you a start

as for the tags I’d look at copying the E05 (aka A34) or E30 (aka M4) near the city of Oxford, UK, Europe which mainly only show in relations mainly. or try the locations that the original author has been working on, if my suggestions are currently in bad repair.

Oh I nerly forgot the ghost lanes this is were people regularly drive or stop on one of sides [or middle] of a marked single lane that is actally wide enough for three busses to pass each other on. Its something to do with freedom to stop while not over regimenting the road space’s use. Sometimes 5 or six ghost lanes run without even a middle line a buses stop two abrest on both sides and the cars, taxis and cycles weave though gaps!

Thank you escada.

There’s a lot to consider for laneing since just numbered them in a old “routing”-way. I thought about the josm plugin but I don’t have a computer compatible with the latest josm accept one I borrow from work when I have a spare moment, this will all need to be more manual for me. I’ve been tending a lot toward the area mapping camp, mainly because I started mapping narrow fottpaths that link very wide roadsmeaning linking to the centre way created a lot of confusing distotion in the map because of the fictious extensions required. Though area:highway mapping has been under appriciated (locally to where I map with other contributers) till recently and much more diffuicult than some people think due to the increase in node accuracy and problems of using picture backgrounds with lots of over hanging trees. though I see a logic for lane definition as the next step in adding practical detail especially for routing devices that handle this level like ,ordern sat-navs on major highways (at the moment - till we start feeding new stuff from the new tagging in OSM ;) ).

My major dificultiy is that the roads I’m mapping have a lot of complex laneing and ghost laneing features, that work differently with diferent types of road-users. Forr example on approach to a roundabout a cycle lane (in-carrageway) widens the splits with one part crossing diaganly across another vehical type’s lane before sometimmes settleing between two others futher along. This enables road users to pridict each others paths easier and in theory improve things. Onther complex arangement is at rounderbouts that have been given lane markings painted as sometimes (espcially at part also retro-fitted (or now pre fitted) with traffic-lights) when there are several sets of lanes that are superimposed into the same place (ie 4 lanes continueing around but also 5 lanes leaving and then 4 lanes pulling off through the middle to a half flyover - now these lanes aren’t alongside each other but painted over the topand though each other the th=raffic light phases orhcastrat sainty in the flows by traffic taking turns to use the differnt alignments though sometimes its up to the divers to weve though each other in there lanes by speed adjustment. All this is cool till you try to adapt lane designation tags to it!

I’m thinking that the routing way (routing being its main function when areaisation uses a lot of area:highway’s) is also like to be overburdened when I have to split it for the rapidly varying multi-clausal parking rules (I counted about 50 on one local residential streat alone (they asked each terrace house what they wanted right outside the house because it getting so contentious!)

This might not sound very positive but it just the sort of real-world “fun&games” type problems that keep thing intreasting and making it less mundane. I think in the end I’ll wind be let to add area:highway=lanes across each other in a superimposing sence and just leave it to the consumer to figure out how to present it all. though the use of accesstype and placement tags (giving forking lane gidance could see it wind up makeing logical sence at least to a routing algorithum). But fist I’ve got to wade though the [tree-]crowns to get the sidewalks linded up right. Then onto happy lane mapping.

Thanks again for your very useful links.

-Govanus

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=51.7302115992194&mlon=-1.2083533142032161&zoom=16#map=18/51.73105/-1.20850

https://www.google.com/maps/place/51%C2%B043%2748.8%22N+1%C2%B012%2730.1%22W/@51.7302754,-1.2079995,18.25z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0

http://osmbuildings.org/gl/?lat=51.73085&lon=-1.20820&zoom=18.8&tilt=0.0&rotation=0.0

this looks really cool - good work.

The colouring has a strong effect.

…and think of the stuggles I get when I just try some area:highways in my city for the older mappers

the main way is to suck in all the data for series of bounding boxes that cover the site in question then use sort process (often linked to renderstyling files like Mapcss and ealy xml stylesheets. these rejct everything you don’t tell them to map in the render (mapcss can in advanceced use not only drill down but do both computation on varibles stored in tags and plot multiple line and area features {see the road lane stylesheet add-on option of a multilane highway to see it rendered with dashed line between each lane on a route widenend to meet the number of lanes}. MapCSS can in most systems if study yhte advance guides work with nested relations withen boolean equations of different tags).

So it shouldn’t be too hard with some systems to avoid roads and airports if that is a bit unhelpful complex and reliant on others work you could try a data appoch and treat the xml datafile in a spreadsheet or text editior to sort thourgh using find and replace. If you you have too much to do I not the odd course now and then and need something quicker for baulk work then try reasuching the likes of gawk/awk, grep, perl and other text pocessing systems oftern originating on unix machines but are now availble from some place for a lot of the other popular platforms like MS-Windows, Risc-OS and different types of the Mac-OS’s (pre & post X) etc.

Ihope this might be useful.

I’m not arogant just after spending overtime on the issue a little bit driven or determined ;) I think the grammer reflected the weriness.

Convince me and I’ll be convinced :)

Having read anything pertaining by subject header from 2007 about A-roads and checked the same on the local Cotswolds section that didn’t begin before 2009 by focusing on the last year and this. I seems that it was actually agreed that all A roads would either be green Trunks or red primaries with all B-roads coming as Secondaries. Only two people in the cotsowld group seemed to show concern for the high street reming tertairy or below. The only other option I could deduce was that in Dec 2007 when you met in the Jerrico Arms pub you may have discussed it and then not put any minites up on the list…

You also seem to have difficulty keeping the opion that it should remain so lowly rated that you felt that the council would need to change it to meet your point of view.

So it looks like the community of officials and some of the locals are struggling to agree with your stated position. {thats just a judgement of what been presented to me to detmine a judgement on - in the sence of being pusuaded otherwise}.

As nobody wanted to take up the question of tagging of areas that if not messed up by others can work with older systems by making the new ares look distigusable. I think some thought that the logic of useing the same taging for points, ways, areas and relations would be the most logical - but its been shown that two meny things take ways and areas (both held in data the same way as ways cept some additional tagging or tag inferance of area like landuse, ment that wasn’t going to fly with roads like it was solved for rivers land use and buildings etc) messy but thats dealing with legacy for you.

I do agree that boycotting for the demotion of a major road just because it works in two halves during the day is a bit too political.

I’ve to leave for closeing now but I’ll look some more in a few sdays at your grooups .

Thinks for the messages coming in from so many paths that I’m largely out of sync and in lag to many… I don’t read my email as often as some may think so if I map before reading changeset comments might take 2 to 4 days to get noticed! they do get there in the end but they might be out of date by then.

ok so lets try and answer some the flurry of points and counterpoints before we need to erect another memorial to martyrs south of the covered market [this for those not familiar to Oxford under discussion relates to the two memorials marking where Catholics were burned and killed during the civil-war in Christendom some centuries ago].

first I have been walking though these roads for a long time and all through the recent edit phase,(add have been out surveying again today) and have a good feel of the weight of traffic by length as well as number for most parts of the day and night (I usually walk though the site anytime upto about 1-3am in the morning as well as throughout the day and evenings). So unlike other areas I might map more lightly for less in depth info this is a spot I do no and from today have the ref’s for every sign in the middle of the road and a proportion of the lamps and signals too, plus I could map fairly easily every manhole cover etc…

So why did I change it from tertiary to Primary? Well several factors coalesced to get it done the week. One I had previously challenged the removal of Ref tags on these roads. As I had seen them in use and felt that that removal had been judgemental and incorrect kind of how people felt about me bumping up the priority of the High street. Incidentally it was the out of date ref:note tag that I referred to as out of date. As it clearly was - stating that the refs where not present when they now were again.

Two the reasoning given in the note didn’t really reflect what I saw on the ground which was a busy road dispite the restriction that people try to use when it was justified.

I looked a lot at that confusion issue some have been mentioning about it being a through route and then not and I specificly added the first basic bus_gate barrier tags to help resolve the problem. ..but they didn’t make it to many renderings and so people still became confused. thats when I invested 7 hours to mark the barrier in the area:highway system [that’s been in the wiki-tagging “manual” in different forms for near 4 years at least.

I had a lot of need for these when mapping the relations between narrow footways and wide roads and before sidewalks became known to me as separatable as I need to make so meny fictious ways to join stuff up even if the side walk made them less than a meter apart the centre of the road could be 5 or 10meters in places so the result was just horrible to look at and dificult to relate to the real landscape at the end. I did my homework on the wiki and tried adopt the tagging being asposed for us to use for this purpose. ..but again not everyone was reading from the same “hymn-sheet” and the discord was driving me nuts with people chngeing my contributions into tag sets that broke renders and routers alike. eventually I looked up what were the latest wiki options and posed it as a question on this diary system http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Govanus/diary/24021 and then, upon advice from an reader of the entry, to the help questions system https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/38079/latest-fashions-in-area-highways-and-the-plan-for-wash-common-coming-soon (it does vary between the two versions a bit as I tried to refine it etc). Which promptly failed to get any answers because it was closed prematurly for being a copy and paste of the diary entry. So so much for community help and consensus. So I pick a wiki type and blunderbust it into areas for others tidy or squabble over.

So thirdly with having thought the confusion problem was solved. I looked at the anomaly of such a highly prioritised road that apparently wasn’t because you couldn’t drive a car through it all day. So I began importing the latest version of the Millennial Transport strategy - lorry part that should how planners wanted lorry and other access 24 hours a day. The road is used as a branching spine for lorry routes approching from opersite side of the barrier. (this process is not yet compleated for the whole city yet but about half might be complete (not such if it needs new tags etc..))

Fourthly all those previously stated reasons came into my head. Now I understand that by vehicles alone it might look less but what if those figures are weighted statistically by size, weight, road-wear, number of occupants in each vehicle and traffic jams of 12-9 buses with some vans thrown in is a bit more substantial than 12-9 cars in a row. Incidentally when I came into the library to write all this and do other stuff I clocked that that the traffic on Longwall backs up from the southern lights by the high street as far back as the Marston Cycleway at the corner by the parks….

So I wasn’t impressed that it had been still redemoted for being “confusing” and an anomaly. There’s less traffic at the top end of the A4158 (Iffley Road) especially after the junction with the B4495. I also don’t believe that so much traffic from the A420 goes straight down the A4158 for instance - a Good chunk finds its way onto the A4165 and the A4144.

Really if its such a massive contention why net let the highways authority sort it out - and yes they picked to make and keep it as a primary now if British B-roads (originally 25% non-local traffic) are tertiary so that the Supped Expressways like the E05/A34 are primary and the other minorised A roads (original 50% or more nationally funded for a lot of non-local traffic) then make some secondary but I loby for the B480 to go to a secondary A-road then. The B480 has so much built around it since the 1930’s began. but then it local to non-local traffic not busyness that determined that after all there B road dual carriageways about the land and on the side of southpark in Oxford there is the remains of a white unclassified dual-carriageway Warnford Lane(to many students park in it to work properly now).

So when local people find the tertiary setting an anomaly and very confusing to use the because of it. I might just crack under the evidence and start taking action.

I’m happy to debate it, but I would like to remind renderers that make road maps that they should add barriered streets for the benefit of there users as this is how the whole Transport control system is designed to work around in Oxford at least. The adage is you can drive virtually anywhere but just not through anywhere.

The other big point I reserlution on is an agreead area mapping standard that we all agree on implement or doge and so things and just be mapped in peace and the OSM mapping system improved.

thanks for the link. Haveing read it I think they haven’t given a substantial rebuful to the above it what I could read there. It seems that just becuse a few buses cycles and pedestrians use it some how dosn’t count to be rated highly. The vey high volume of remaining traffic as mentioned above and the factthat the councils are looking to build a tunnel to take just the buses alone shows that it isn’t a good enough reason to demote the route.