Changeset: 46626085
Polskie nazwy miejscowości
Closed by wmyrda
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (11639 pl) |
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source | knowledge |
Discussion
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Comment from Tomas Straupis
Chrm. You're updating not 10-20, but hundreds objects and I have to spend too much time fixing it. It is not nice, that you're knowingly introducing a lot of errors. Please fix your automated script if you want to do more automated updates. The rule is very simple: if area is in Lithuania and name:lt does not exist, add name:lt with value equal to name value. Thank you.
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Comment from wmyrda
Whatever. They are not automated but done by hand from the source http://polski.mapywig.org/news.php I do not have the lithuanian names there and I do not know whether names in name tag are lihuanian therefore I would not add any tags with name:lt
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Comment from Tomas Straupis
In Lithuania ALL values in name tag are Lithuanian. So if the point you're changing is in Lithuania, name tag HAS Lithuanian value.
Let's not get into situation where I would think of doing reverts rather than spending hours fixing name tag errors done on purpose.
Do it RIGHT or don't do it at all. -
Comment from wmyrda
I am doing what I can to help OSM community and I do add proper values there. You by threatening to delete others work (my in this case) go against OSM spirit as my entries are not wrong. Maybe they are not sufficient, but OSM community has 3537047 members at the moment and I am sure in time some one would also add all name:lt values. I concentrate on name:pl tag.
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Comment from Tomas Straupis
OSM spirit says that you must consult and take into account the local mapping rules. Local mapping rules in Lithuania is to do QUALITY work, not anything anyway someway anyhow. You KNOW the rules, you know what you must do, it is not hard to do that, and yet you say you will do it in incorrect way. How do you expect such behaviour to be valued?
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Comment from rmikke
@Tomas Straubis If there is such a rule in Lithuania, then this is the job for a bot to enforce it. Just add name:lt if there is such a rule. You cannot expect outside mappers to stick to your local rules - if they don't go against them (e.g. removing name:lt tags), they are doing right. Did wmyrda emove name:lt or change local official name to some wrong value? If not, than I don't understand your problem.
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Comment from rmikke
@Tomas Straupis:
"Let's not get into situation where I would think of doing reverts rather than spending hours fixing name tag errors done on purpose."This is essentially blackmailing a user doing a good job, that you will destroy his work if he doesn't do additional job he has no knowledge to do, to satisfy some QA bot.
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Comment from Tomas Straupis
@rmikke:
I cannot expect outside mappers to know it in the beginning. And that is why I have already fixed hundreds of such errors in the past (sometimes they came together with adding some old incorrect population or other incorrect data etc., I had to revert such additional bad changes, bot would not have been able to do that without removing name:pl tags). But it was taking too much time, so after I told/explained it NUMEROUS times to the user doing the changes, I expect that such a simple rule is respected. It is not a rocket science to add ONE tag when adding another. As the change is very simple, I count ignoring it as total disrespect of Lithuanian mappers work on keeping the data clean, predictable and usable.
And it is not blackmailing, it is showing that rude ignorance of now KNOWN local rules is far from "doing a good job". If somebody keeps their house clean, it is not polite for the outsider to walk inside with dirty boots and tell "just buy the cleaning service". -
Comment from wmyrda
wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names does not say anything about doing anything differently in Lithuania. I am not using bots but I am doing manual work from old and very hard to read maps from website above eg. http://igrek.amzp.pl/details.php?id=3944 Spending half a day figuring out which name goes where is hard enough to concentrate on it and add polish names there.
OSM first of all is based on volunteer work, remember that. I do not have knowledge or that much time to do everything and I concentrate on stuff that interests me to have the most in the OSM and would also add name:be, name:ru, name:de or any other name if I had knowledge AND TIME to do that.
Local rules for tagging mean one should not map differently than local community tags. I did not do so, just did not satisfy whole specification which does not interest me. Your threats to remove my time consuming work work (even worse done automatically with bots) goes totally against everything community stands for.I hope this would not get to this, but If you do remove any of this work please expect that I will write a letter to DGW about this to say the least crazy and bizarre approach of yours.
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Comment from Tomas Straupis
1. You're doing work which belongs to OpenHistoricalMap, not OpenStreetMap. This explains why some of the name:pl tags you add are incorrect: they have nothing in common with official name, neither phonetically, nor by the meaning. While I'm not interested in name:pl tags, expect those to be fixed by other mappers.
2. Administration division changes, you cannot map (connect) every historical village/town to village/town existing today. Places get abandoned, merged and renamed because of different reasons including vote of people living in the village.
3. If you think that your hard work is for some reason more valuable/important than my hard work, then please contact DWG BEFORE doing any changes and requiring any fixes. Lets get third party opinion about 1) adding OHM data to OSM 2) knowingly introducing errors and ignoring local mappers. -
Comment from rmikke
@Tomas Straupis:
"You're doing work which belongs to OpenHistoricalMap, not OpenStreetMap."Until it is still the same place, it has still the same Polish name and it belongs in name:pl in OSM.
"This explains why some of the name:pl tags you add are incorrect: they have nothing in common with official name, neither phonetically, nor by the meaning. While I'm not interested in name:pl tags, expect those to be fixed by other mappers."
Umm, Polish name doesn't have to have anything in common with official name, especially if the official name has been changed. For example Polish name for Kaliningrad is still "Królewiec". So, unless there is new Polish names in use, or @wmyrda has made an evident mistake, there is nothing to correct. Otherwise of course it should be individually corrected.
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Comment from Tomas Straupis
As wmyrda has pointed out, he is taking a map from 1928-1939 and trying to map what he sees there to todays villages. Both mapping such different things as well as putting names from that map is incorrect. If his purpose is solely to use that old map to get Polish names - then he is using bad source. If he wants to put information of that historical map to some GIS DB (in this case OSM), then he is putting data into wrong place because that data will divert from his hard work really fast.
But that is your choice. I've spent too much time on this pointless topic already. -
Comment from rmikke
@Tomas Straupis You are kidding, right?
"And it is not blackmailing, it is showing that rude ignorance of now KNOWN local rules is far from "doing a good job". If somebody keeps their house clean, it is not polite for the outsider to walk inside with dirty boots and tell "just buy the cleaning service"."You are not requesting outsider to keep clean what is clean. You are requesting outsider that provides you something to clean up your house in places you haven't managed to clean up yourself.
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Comment from rmikke
@Tomas Straupis
"If his purpose is solely to use that old map to get Polish names - then he is using bad source."
OK, if you know better source of Polish names, just provide it. I'm sure @wmyrda will be happy to have more current data. Otherwise, the last Polish name in use is still a valid Polish name. -
Comment from Tomas Straupis
„Outsider“ (as you put it) is not providing anything we need (we need current data, not historical one; current translations to a lot of languages for placenames can easily come from wikipedia/wikidata which we already have, so adding them is redundant even more than name:lt tag is).
„Outsider“ is just knowingly ignoring our rules.
In the end you get a data subset which does not represent neither current Polish names, nor historical Polish names of specific period. So this dataset cannot be used for any of such purposes, so it is useless...
But once again, do what you want. I will fix your errors but I will not guard the data against fixes of name:pl values by other mappers. -
Comment from wmyrda
"„Outsider“ (as you put it) is not providing anything we need (we need current data, not historical one;"
It might be historical for you but is present for us and still valid today us it is very rare for polish government to change the names for already established locations. Project also is an international one and not Lithuanian therefore in case you do not need something does not mean others would not do. Deletion knowingly deleting of international values and data is considered destructive and goes against every possible cooperation rule in OSM and like I said previously would very likely be the subject of DWG intervention. -
Comment from Tomas Straupis
Never knew that polish government is somehow controlling names of foreign countries :-)
- Comment from wmyrda
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Comment from Tomas Straupis
Cool. From what I looked at all names are either phonetic, or meaning translation from current Lithuanian names. With Lithuanian name and coordinate it is possible to import them automatically. Looks like a perfect source for name:pl value.
So it is unclear what is the point to take names from hundred years old map... -
Comment from wmyrda
For example registry does not have all of them (hamlets example) and it is easier to find your way around on the map then on the registry. Regardless of the source it does not give you right to delete the values introduced in OSM as you clearly see those names do not change monthly as the current registry is from 2013 and very likely based on data gathered much earlier eg. 80 years ago.
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Comment from Tomas Straupis
When did I delete any name:pl value?
I'm only saying that when/if village/hamlet is deleted from Lithuanian placenames, it is deleted from OSM. All values including name, name:lt, name:pl, name:xx, etc.
All places currently in OSM which are not in official registry are also deleted (after short period of being left as place=locality). -
Comment from rmikke
"Never knew that polish government is somehow controlling names of foreign countries :-)"
Umm, Polish names are part of Polish languages, so it's rather obvious that they are decided by Polish institutions (not necessarily government). Exactly the same way as some Lithuanian body decides how you call Karaliaučius, not Russians.But there is another thing that made me truly curious: in what circumstances are places removed from official registers?
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Comment from Tomas Straupis
When people care about other peoples goals, priorities and respect the time they spend on it.
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Comment from rmikke
Ok, now I'm sure you are kidding. You really expect me to believe, that "when people care about other peoples goals, priorities and respect the time they spend on it", their places are removed from official registers?
Nodes (15)
- Būklės (1218866034), v5
- Plomėnai (1218867947), v5
- Mikniškės (2205007360), v4
- Seimėnai (2613156409), v4
- Kudrionių Giria (2619638470), v5
- Alsakėliai (2619731244), v4
- Kudrionys (2619731266), v5
- Kunigaikštinė (3174365168), v4
- Alsakiai (3254834304), v4
- Pagulianka (3285644422), v4
- Kęstutiškės (3289975812), v4
- Norkai (3289975814), v4
- Dainavėlė (3305678986), v4
- Barkiškės (3305907720), v4
- Sibirka (3305983104), v4
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