Changeset: 46469488
Polskie nazwy miejscowości
Closed by wmyrda
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (11639 pl) |
---|---|
source | knowledge |
Discussion
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Comment from Tomas Straupis
Please add name:lt with value equal to name when adding other name:* tags (one of keepright.at errors). Thank you.
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Comment from wmyrda
I never heard of such an requirement. IMHO adding name:*=* for country which language is represented in main name tag is redundant.
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Comment from Tomas Straupis
This was one of keepright.at checks from looong time ago...
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Comment from Zmianowy
Wszędzie zagranicą dopisuję tylko name:pl, tylko na obszarze Litwy jest inaczej, bo Tomas pilnuje, żeby było jeszcze name:lt.
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Comment from maraf24
Tagging for keepright? ;)
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Comment from Tomas Straupis
Fixing errors which different QA tools (including keepright.at) finds.
The rationale of having name:xx has been discussed a long time ago. Problem with "name" tag is that it is not clear in what language the name has been entered. Even in countries like Poland or Lithuania where there is only one official language, name tag sometimes contains non "local" values. But in some other countries there is more than one official language. -
Comment from wmyrda
"Problem with "name" tag is that it is not clear in what language the name has been entered"
If that is the case than there is no way for me to be sure that I add Lithuanian name to name:lt therefore it would be best if I just stick to adding polish names to name:pl for which I do have sources and let You guys fill in the gaps for name:lt which You have better understanding whether they are correct or not -
Comment from Tomas Straupis
OK. But just for your information: in Lithuania all place names and population are checked/compared to official placename registry (new placenames appear, old ones disappear monthly). So in Lithuania all placenames have name tag in Lithuanian.
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Comment from wmyrda
Strange that I have only very few old:name tags and no old_name:lt if you change names so often. You just replace the name and forget the old one?
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Comment from Tomas Straupis
I probable have never changed any placename with old_name tag. But if I do, I will only change name tag and leave old_name (and old_name:pl) as is.
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Comment from rmikke
Sorry, keepright or no, there is no sense in keeping the same name in name=* and name:lt=*. This woul make sense only when name:lt was different from locally used name and I believe this doesn't happen in your country as it doesn't happen in mine.
Also, I really don't understand how keeping redundant name:lt does affect the problem of frequent changing names.
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Comment from Tomas Straupis
Keepright or no, this is almost ten years old rule how name:* tags work. Keepright is just one of QA tools which checks it.
There is enough material explaining what is the purpose of name:xx tag and this is not the right place to discuss it. -
Comment from maraf24
@Tomas Straupis, there is no such rule like "add name:XX with value equal to name when adding other name:* tags" documented in OSM wiki.
We have instead https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names for multi-language countries and I can't see Lithuania there.
The local rules can be also documented in Lithuanian version of https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name page. But there is no such page.
In that case any data consumer would comply with the rule from https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names ie. "The default name (occupying the 'name' tag without suffix) should be the name in whatever language is used locally."
What language could be used in Lithuania? Your country wikipedia page https://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lietuva states "Valstybinė kalba lietuvių".
Is that true? Is there only one official language in Lithuania? Why we can't assume this language as defauilt for name tag? Actually, this is what everybody does in OSM since the begining. This is your your 10 years old rule. -
Comment from rmikke
I still can't see the rationale behind this redundancy, but hey, it's not an excessive amount of data, so feel free to add it. Just don't try to force others into adding it for you by threatening to destroy their job if they don't.
Also, decide - either adding name:lt requires manual control in each case - and then don't expect mappers from abroad to do it, they are not qualified; or it is simple copying from name and then just set a bot or script to do it and don't bother people to do a mual labor when it can be automated. Tertium non datur.
In short: if you feel something has to be added, just add it.
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Comment from Tomas Straupis
1. Yes, there is only one official language in Lithuania - Lithuanian (85% of population are Lithuanians, so there is no point of having other official language).
2. This discussion takes too much time already. This is very old keepright rule and I did not invent/write keepright. We stress on QA very much and there is no other way to handle it without using automated QA tools. I guess we should now concentrate on should such historical data be added to OSM database at all.
3. One of Lithuanian mappers was doing similar hard work putting Lithuanian names in Karaliaučius (Kaliningrad) district. Later when local (Russian) mappers found that out they also changed lots of the names so part of his hard work was lost. He then created a separate dataset and published it separately. This situation looks very similar. Therefore my advice is to add such historic names to a different dataset, because name:pl tag is definitely not the right place to put HISTORICAL names (why start of XX age is chosen?, why not XVIII age, or second Moscow occupation (soviet) period? Answer is not needed, I'm just giving examples to show that there is no one correct answer). So I'm now stressing the point that this hard work of going through historical maps and mapping names to existing objects is sometimes incorrect (villages change quite a lot) and is in danger of being destroyed by other mappers doing legitimate/correct editions. -
Comment from Tomas Straupis
And main point. Please respect a strive of Lithuanian mappers for as higher quality as possible and not look at it as "it's your choice, so you fix what we brake".
This adding of name:lt tag has already proven very useful when crap.me users started destroying good data as well as in other less widespread examples.
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